VCCA Home Forums TECHNICAL - 1945 AND NEWER 1949-1954 Mystery Truck: generator/regulator this time

I'm calling my Chevy 4400 (man, I love that truck) my Mystery Truck now. According to the electrical configuration (voltage regulator on the driver's side of the cowl (1950, 1951)rather than the fender skirt (1949) and the fact that the engine block number is for a 1950 235, I believe my 1940 Chevy 4400 is a 1950 Chevy 4400. The title says it is a 1949, but all other evidence says it is a 1950.

I overhauled the engine this autumn and goofed up the oil pan gasked and had to re-do. On the test drive down wash-boarded dirt roads after the re-do the positive side of the battery cable rattled off - so it was too loose and that was my fault.

Now the electrical system doesn't charge the battery whereas before it did. I have grounded the field terminal of the regulator to see any difference in the charge rate. None. But this could be due to stuck points in the regulator. So, I'm taking that apart now. With regs at $80 and generators at $220, I would like to fix this problem myself rather than just start putting on new parts.

When the battery cable rattled off the battery, the truck did not stop running.

What kind of damage to the regulator or the generator can "running the truck without the battery connected" do?

Many thanks,

Harrell Sellers
Brookings, SD

Hi,

Before you panic, remove the band on the generator and look at the armature. Is it black where the brushes contact the armature? If it is, with the engine running, hold some crocus cloth on the armature and clean up the contact area.

Remove the fan belt. With a jumper wire, touch the LARGE terminal on the generator. The generator should turn like a slow motor. If it does, problem most likely to be elsewhere. If it doesn't, the problem is likely the generator.

Generator for $220? I must be in the wrong business.

Many years ago my first car was a '30 Model A standard roadster. Once when I was driving at night fast on a very rough road my ground cable came off. The result: Every light was burned out instantly and the ammeter didn't work after that. I just assumed back then, that the generator current didn't have anywhere to go except the bulbs. I did get the benefit of super bright lights but that was over in several seconds...

Many thanks for your replies.

This generator doesn't have a band that covers the brushes.... perhaps that could be the problem... The rear of the generator where the wires attach to the generator is open. I will examine the condition of the brushes and contacts...

Thanks.

Harrell Sellers
Brookings, SD

P.S. I also was thinking to learn to refurbish generators.... junk yards are full of 'em.

Harrell, Do not be too hard on your truck. It is not out of normal for Chevrolet to use 50 parts on a 49 vehicle. If the 49 parts supply line runs out then it is normal to pull parts from the 50 parts supply. My 51 Station wagon had a build date of late production 1950. It was a vehicle that had a hard time getting through the line and did not head for a dealership until September of 1951. When gramps gave me the car it was all original and well worn. It had a 1952 radiator in the car (based on mfg casting number). After being told that it was the one that came with the car, when he bought it, several times I quit asking. I had it judged once and the judge centered right in on that cast number so I purchased one with a 51 code. Every time I pass by the "original" radiator with the 52 markings I chuckle and utter a few kind words to Mr. Chevrolet. Also, since that date, I have found a few 51 Chevrolets that have 52 code numbers on their raidator.
Thats just the way it is I guess?

I worked atr a Chevrolet Dealer starting in 1950. I can not remember of ever seeing another years parts used on a model. If a running change/improvement was made it was well documented. Cars didn't sit around at the factory either.
The reason your 1951 has a radiator core with a 1952 date is as follows.
Due to the Korean war there were many running changes made during 1951 (1951 production ran from 11-20-50 thru 12-31-51). Due to brass shortages the top radiator tank of most 1951 cars was made from steel rather than brass. The result was the bottom of the tank would rust through in less than a year. The proccedure was to replace the tank. This would be done at an athourized Harrison radiator shop. The replacment brass tank will have a 1952 date stamped. This is common in judging 1951 cars and its difficult to find one with the 1951 date.
The dealer I worked for sold about 1000 cars a year. We kept several exchange radiators in the parts department so the customer did not need to tie up the car for a day or two.
There should be something in VCCA judging noting that a 1951 may have an incorrect year top tank on the radiator. This would be simular to the 1965-1967 8 Cyl cars that have the calbe restraints installed prevent the lifting up of the engine when the motor mounts break. The 1968 had an inter lock on the mount (the replacement mounts for the earlier had it also) ....this prevent the engine from lifting if a mount broke. When the engine lifted it would pull the carburetor open causing the car to lurch ahead. To make matters worse if the car had power brakes the vacuum hose would pull out of the PB booster and the brakes would then be severly reduced in stopping power.
Some of the other running changes made during the 1951 year were - Seat adjusting knob, clock knob, ash tray knobs changed from metal to plastic, rear fender crown moulding on Deluxe models eleminated, Spare tire eleminated mis-year, the turn buckle handle to tighten air cleaner to carb was replaced by a slotted screw,steering column cover for accessory turn signal eleminated, starter button changed to plastic, to name some.

The 1949 truck cabs has several running changes that were carried over to 1950. The door windlace, head liner and bow, and the Thriftmaster/Loadmaster name on the side of the hood eleminated and changed to 3100,3800, etc.

Our 1969 Impala came with the interlock motor mounts.....and they still broke and the engine would practically lay on its side when it happened. And, as Chev Nut mentioned, the car would lurch ahead due to the carburetor throttle shaft engaging. Replaced the interlock motor mounts three times and they still broke with the same results. One time we were on a VCCA tour in Canada and the motor mounts broke. Used picture frame cable and clamps to tie the motor down to get back to Oregon after the tour. Finally, I was able to track down five new old stock cable restraints from a Chevrolet dealer in Chicago and I installed them on our Impala. End of problem!

Chevgene... Thanks for the correct information. Folklore is somethimes misleading.
Brownie

Chevgene, I see you're in West Allis. I'm an Allis enthusiast and if you are too you may remember a good friend, Wayne Dodge, who passed away a few years ago. Wayne had one of the three remaining 1933 Allis WCs.

Can you tell me what, if any, defining changes there were in the Chevy 4400 one and a half ton truck that would differentiate a 1949 from a 1950? The engine serial number begins with HAA, the voltage regulator is on the "firewall" and not the inside of the fender but the title says it is a 1949.

Many thanks,

Harrell Lee Sellers
My-Tee Cold, South Dakota

I just polarized the generator and it seems to be working fine now.

If this makes any difference, the headliner in my truck seems to be a two-piece thing with a rib or bow separating the front and back piece.

HLS

Lee,
Sorry, I didn't know Wayne.

Lets start with the engine number. HAA = H is any 1950 engine, A is ID for type of engine - which is a passenger car 216 engine. The last A indicates the engine was buit in Flint.

A 1949 4000 series 216 engine would be a G for 1949, a C for 4000 series 216 engine and a D or E for Flint and a Q or R for Tonawanda. The 1950 216 engine would begine with an H with the remaining numbers being the same as 1949. For either year if the 4000 series truck was ordered with the optional 235 engine an A would preceed the first letter in the code (total of 4 letters).
The yesr and size of the engine also could be verified by the casting number-lower right side near distributor. I could decode that number for you.
The 1949 and 1950 216 and the 1949 235 engines will have the high push rod cover ( 9 1/2") and the 1950 235 will have the low push rod cover (5 21/32").

Things easily changed - the 1949 had a Carter W-1 carb and the 1950 had a Rochester. The date the radiator was made will be stamped into the top tank.....example 1949 date would be like 4-49 and 1950 date like 6-50.
The 1949 has round muffler and the inlet and out let connections are off-set. The connections are centered for 1950.

The 1949 cab had a maroon plastic knob on the side cowl vent lever, the 1950 has no knob. The 1949 has two wire pig tail springs visable when the side vent is open. The 1950 does not.
The glove compartment hinges on a 1949 are 2 7/8' wide for the right and 4" wide for the left. The 1950 hinges are both 2 5/16 wide.
Let me know what you find.

PS _ what was the 1933 Allis WCs ?

Many thanks, Chevgene.

I haven't found the engine casting number yet.... on the lower right below and rearward of the distributor on that land are the numbers HAA....

It has the high push rod cover that covers the spark plugs and butts with the rocker arm cover. This is consistent with what you posted regarding the 1949 235 engine, but in that case the HAA engine number seems to be wrong.

It has a brown platic knob on the cowl vent lever.

The engine is a 235 - of this I am certain.... three ring piston (oil and two compression rings)and the pistons mic to 235 specs. And the pistons marked as standard rather than oversized.

I'll look more for the engine casting number....

Harrell Lee Sellers
Brookings, SD

1949 235 casting # is 3835309. That really can not be changed. The stamped in number on the ledge can be changed.

Thanks, Chevgene - (this sounds dumb) I didn't see the block casting number below the distributor. I did see the "OM" below and forward of the distributor and the serial number, HAA4I9294, is below and rearward of the distributor.

Can the casting number be under the push rod cover? I recall seeing the 383xxx number once before when I was looking for the engine block serial number. Is the casting number on the side of the block or the top of the bottom flange?

From your posts, I believe I am looking for a number that is cast embossed. Could it be that the stamper guy just missed the prefix to the HAA number on that day?

The radiator tank number is R-06 49 D

So the radiator is a '49.

It is still possible that it was bored a sixteenth over and fitted with std. 235 pistons. Check the stroke and make sure that it's 3.9375" and not 3.750" you should be able to see a 3/16" difference with a tape measure.
Who knows what was done to these engines and trucks in the 60 years they've been in service.

Oh, and I think Gene was refering to the knob or lack off, on the "side cowl vent" lever, not the center cowl vent, which would still have a maroon plastc knob in '50. And it probably appears brown because it is faded.

Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

The later engines have the casting number behind the starter. My 1950 235 engine has the number nest to the distributor.
The 1949 engine The main oil gallery (left side of block- just below water jacket) is smaller on a 1949 engine. Just a bump in the casting is visable The gallery sticks out farther on a 1950 engine and hump is much larger. The top of the hump is actually at a right angle to the straight water jacket....The oil gauge pressure line/fitting goes into the gallery..guess I will need to senf you pictures.
If 235 pistons are installed in a 216 block the top of the piston will raise above the top of the block when the piston is all the way up. The 235 engine has a higher deck than a 216. The engine will "work" OK with the higher piston and you get a compression ratio boost. They cylinder walls also get quite thing when 235 pistons are insatlled.
I would need your email address to send pictures.
The 1948 and 1949 blocks also had a raised circle on the side of the block, aboutthe size of an old silver dollar. There was the numbers 48 in the center. On a 1950 engine there is a 50 in the center.
I would suspect the truck is a 1949 going by the radiator date.
Yes, not the top cowl vent but the side vent next to the drivers feet.

Thank you all. Chevgene, my email address is harrell sellers (all one word, no spaces) at hotmail dot com.

I was referring to the side cowl vent knob - brown plastic. Two-piece headliner.

I considered that it may be a '49 216 bored 1/16 for the std 235 piston, but a local guru said that a reasonable person wouldn't do that due to thining of the cylinder walls. Also the HAA seems to be a 50 number so the engine could be a 50 216 bored to 235. One might think that a 235 block might be bigger than a 216, but Felpro's head gasket fits 216 (37-53) and 235 (41-49)which would seem to be evidence that they're the same dimension and this is the head gasked that I used.

The pistons at TDC do not come above the block. I didn't measure the stroke. 235 pistons on a 216 crankshaft would not make a 235 cid.

Many thanks again,

Harrell Lee Sellers
Brookings, SD

Boring a cylinder .060” over was a common practice with hot rodders and they put the engines through a lot more punishment than the average user would. You’re only taking .030” off the wall thickness, and the walls typically run a good 1/4” to 5/16” thick.
True Harrell, by calculation if you fitted a 216 with a 235 piston the displacement would still not be 235, but that may not have been the object of the exercise. The HAA serial number indicates it’s a 216 engine and if the cylinders were worn they still might have bored it and put std. 235 pistons in it. Who knows, maybe they just wanted to get a tad more oomph out of that tired old 216. Did you take a tape measure and check the stroke??? Just crank her over once and you will know. Now I don’t know if the 235 crank will fit the 216 block, Gene could probably tell, but if it will then that may have been changed also.

You say the side vent handle has a knob on it which is telling us that the truck looks more like it’s a ’49, and the engine SN is a ’50 so it’s obvious that the engine had been replaced at one time in it’s life. So it’s not to far fetched to believe that an engine shop bored it and fitted stock pistons.
Oh, and the ’50 AD would have had a two-piece headliner also.
You might try looking at TOCMP http://chevy.oldcarmanualproject.com/ and in the service bulletins here: http://chevy.oldcarmanualproject.com/bulletins/index.htm#Service%20Topics
or at the Resto packs here: http://chevy.oldcarmanualproject.com/chevyresto/50index.htm & http://chevy.oldcarmanualproject.com/chevyresto/49index.htm .
And there is always the ’49 & ’50 Engineering Features booklets to help sort out what you actually have.

Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

Many thanks to all.

Denny, I didn't measure the stroke when I had the head off and now the engine is back together and running well.

How would you, personally, measure the stroke with the head on? I can imagine methods such as using a washer on a thread inserted into the cylinder through a spark plug hole...with care one could measure the distance from the lip of the spark plug hole to the top of the piston at the bottom and top of the stroke.

HS

Well Harrell, I'm not exactly how you could measure the stroke with the head and pan back on. Maybe someone else has some ideas. I personally would avoid puting anything in the cylinder at this time other than fuel and air.
Anyway, it's a mute point now, isn't it! I would still believe the SN stamped on the block and be satisfied that it is a '50 engine that has been rebuilt. The S.A.E. horspower of both engines is 29.4 and 30.4 so it taint no big thing if your not gonna do any full load hauling with it.
Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

The 1941-49 235 engine used the following 235 only parts.
The block casting was different to allow the cylinders to be bored out to 3 9/16" (from 3 1/2").The bolck deck (top) was 1/8" higher due to the longer stroke (same rods were used) piston pin was not relocated in piston making it necessary to raise block deck.
Crank shaft different due to longer stroke.
Camshaft and lifters "revised" to clear connecting rods due to longer stroke. Their circle of travel was greater
The head, head and pan gaskets, etc were the same as a 216. Oil pan was the same except troughs were lower due to longer stroke.
The taxable horse power of a 216 was 29.4 and the 235 was 30.4. This is a meaningless figure based on the bore of the engine. In England new cars were taxed at purchase by this figure. That is why many US cars with large bores were not popular there in the pre-war years, Some engines sold in US cars in England were special smaller bore engines.
The 216 had 90 HP at 3300 RPM and the 235 had 93 at 3100 RPM. The small increase was due to the intake system, (carb-manifold etc) were the same as a 216. It was all about torque, the 216 had 174 foot pounds and the 235 had 192 foot pounds.
Casting numbers will be the most simple way to determine year/size of engine.
The 1949 and 1950 (216) head also had different casting numbers. The 1949 had 30 deg. exhaust valve seats. The 1950 had slightly larger ex. valves with 45 Drg seats.....Some mechanics reground the 1949 seats to 45 Deg and used 1950 valves.
Other than the casting number the big circle with the 48 or 50 in the center between the fuel pump and distributo will tell the story. (if the block is a 1948 thru 1951).
I think what he is after is just to fine out what year the engine was from.

Thanks Denny and Chevgene. Chevgene, you're exactly right - I would like to know of the block is a 50 or 49, 216 or 235. When I started the overhaul I believed the engine to be a 216. Then when the piston rings came they were wrong for the pistons I had taked out of the block. So, I was concerned about the other parts I had ordered, since the pistons were 3-ring and mic-ed at 235 specs. It all made for a confusing project. Then, I had never seen an oil line pass through the water jacket and had no idea how it made the connections through the block.

My extensive experience with Allis-Chalmers farm equipment is that parts were often borrowed from different production lines... (most of the time the parts books will give serial number breaks when parts from a different line are incorporated) and Allis was famous for using the same part anyway on many different models for many years.

The block on my 49 Chevy 4400 has a nice coat of a medium blue paint. I can't see anything in the circle that is below and forward of the distributor and close to the fuel pump. It's probably full of paint.

At present, the most reasonable thing for me to believe is that the truck is a 1949, the engine is a 1950 216 bored for 235 pistons. It has bearing shells and not babbitted rod caps.

Many thanks to all!

Harrell Lee Sellers
Brookings, SD

The fact that the block has inserts is a good indiaction that it was rebuilt at one time. Then it would have had oversized pistons also. The fact that the pistons were standard size for a 235 also indiactes it could have been bored to 3 9/16".
All 1936-1953 engines had the oil line running through the coolant in the center of the block - EXCEPT - the 1950-1962 235's.
I emailed you a oil passage picture thei morning. At least it will determine if it was a 1949 or 1950 block.
From my memory a 4000 searies truck was seldom ordered with a 235 engine, at least not in this parts of the country. May have been more common in the mountain states

Many thanks for the picture you sent. That settled the question of the year of the engine block. It's a 1950. The serial number, HAA..., indicates it was originally a 216.

Thank you also for the dynamometer horsepower data - ~30 horsepower never seemed reasonable to me for a grain truck rated for a load of 11,000 pounds on 1950-style highways. I have the University of Nebraska dynamometer data for tractors but no data for cars.

Many thanks!

Harrell