VCCA Home Forums TECHNICAL - 1945 AND EARLIER 1929-1932 30 and 32 starter lockup

This may be a stupid question, but I have to ask it. My 32 starter has jammed or as I say lock up from time to time and I have a 30 Roadster that has done it also. Both cars have had 3 different starters when this has happened. Need some help on this one so I figured I better ask the Pro's. :o

Be more specific as to what you mean by "lock-up". Does the Bendix gear disengage the flywheel? The starter motor won't turn or?

What happens is that when you shut down at times it won't turn over, you step on the starter and nothing not a sound. The drive hangs up and you have to turn the engine over backwards. At that point you hear the drive release and it may not happen again for quite a while.This also happens on the Roadster. Moved the starters from engine to engine and at times it will do the same thing. It seems to me that it has to be something besides the starters. I use a screwdriver in the timing window and move the engine backwards,listen for the click and off it goes.Can't leave home without a screwdriver or you will be walking :eek: :eek:

This is still not quite clear.....if there is "no sound" when you engage the starter, which means the starter isn't turning over, how then can the Bendix gear engage the flywheel without the starter turning? At any rate, if the Bendix gear is not disengaging the flywheel, check the teeth on your flywheel ring gear. They could be the problem, especially if this happens on the same car with two different starters installed.

When this happens there is no sound when stepping on the starter which would have you thinking that the battery is dead. At that point the bendix is jammed or stuck and the only way to free it up is to turn the engine over counter clockwise. Now this has happened on the Roadster also. At first I thought the same thing on the 32,but when it did it on the Roadster I thought it may have happened to someone else. I will check both Flywheels and see if all the teeth are ok. :( :(

Hi Leo,
I have had the same problem with my `30. I am not sure, but I believe that when the starter cannot get at once the full voltage, it fails. First I tried with another starter, but it did not help. Then I went through both starters: bendix springs, brushes a.s.o. I cleaned the copper surfaces in the switch on the starter and drew the starter and the battery poles quite tight. Now either starter does not jam any more.
PS. Then when the starter jammed, easiest way to get it free was to put the 3d gear on and push the car a little bit backwards with your knee, and you could hear the bendix to click free.
Finn

Hi Finn,
Thanks for the reply, I had turned the armature, new brushes,new bushing on the drive end, checked the switch cleaned the copper surfaces on two of the starters and still had it happen. The thing that baffles me is there is no sound like you get with a low battery, not a sound. Your right about pushing it back in gear,that works also. I use a screw driver just below the pointer and just move it a tad and listen for the click. What is troubling is that it has happened on the 30 and a few times on the 32. two different starters and the same thing. The third starter is off the spare engine and so far it has not let me down.
I am going to check the flywheel on the 30 in the next couple of days to check the teeth to make sure I don't have a problem there. Usually if you do have a bad area it will sound off when the starter goes by the bad spot, but no such noise from either car. I will post the results.

For the Bendix gear to engage the flywheel and become "jammed" as you say, the starter motor must turn to gain the centrifugal force to spin the Bendix gear into the flywheel so that it can engage. If the starter doesn't turn at all then the Bendix gear cannot engage the flywheel to become jammed. When the Bendix gear does become jammed in the flywheel, could this be happening when the car was started at first, and the Bendix gear did not disengage upon initial start up? When the Bendix gear is jammed with the flywheel ring gear, then when you try to start the car, the starter will be in lockup, therefore it cannot turn and there will be no noise coming from the starter.

:( :( :(

When you check the teeth on your flywheel ring gear, also check the Bendix gear to see if it has free travel from the "rest" position in the starter to the end of the nose cone, and back again. It is possible that the Bendix gear is becoming stuck at the end of travel thus not disengaging and returning to the "rest" position as it should after the car is started.


By the way, the starter model number for your car should be 714-L

While at it, check the numbers on the starters. If they have been rebuilt in prior years the tag is usually discarded. Check the number of teeth in the starter gear. Altho earlier starters will bolt up and work, sometimes they may jam as a result of the wrong bendix and gear.

The first time I had a problem was with the 32,it started to run hot so I pulled into a Gas Station to let it cool off. When I went to start it, nothing happened. That was the first time and after a while I had figured it out. It happened a couple of more times after that. The next time it was on the 30 Roadster and that was after I had checked all the rod bearings. The first thought was that I had one too tight. I. rechecked my work and nothing was wrong. I continued with the other work I had to do and basicly forgot about it.
Then it was time to move it to the Top Shop and when I went to load it on the car carrier it did the same thing, so I removed the starter and installed the spare and off it went, and again I brushed it off as a fluke.
After getting the 30 90% finished I decided to give it a test run it happened again. I checked the Amp Guage to see if it had a draw and it showed nothing,so it appears that if the drive is not fully engaged the starter switch does not go all the way in to make it draw some current.
JYD, to answer your question this has occured on the first start of the day also.
The starter on the 32 has a broken bolt hole and no ID tag and outside of that it works fine on both cars. The tag number on the 32 is 1107061 space 6F. I can't get to the 30 until tomorrow and will get the numbers off that.
Gentlemen,thanks for the help, and I will keep you updated.

If your amp gauge shows no current draw then there is no current going to your starter, so that is why you hear nothing because "nothing" is happening. Check all battery connections, and also check your starter switch. The starter switch has absolutely nothing to do with whether the Bendix gear is engaged or not.

You mention that the 1932 starter has no ID tag, but then you say that the tag number is 1107061 space 6F. If there is no tag on the starter, where did you get the number?

Just to clear us what may be confusing. The starter circuit does not go through, nor is it registered, on the ampgage. So engaging the starter will NOT be reflected in the gage. When you turn on the ignition a - movement may be registered on the ampgage if the points are closed. If the points are open no current will flow.

Hi JYD and LEO
I have had my starter problems over for a longer time, now. I do not know what was the reason but I suppose they were many. I suspect that the main reason was that the bendix spring had been tired. It is repaired.
I cannot see anything in the amp gauge, when I start, because the starting current does not go through the amp gauge. The tag number on the other starter is: model 714L serial # 700453.

The original starter on the 32 had no ID tag, the used engine had all the accessories on it and the ID# is 1107061 6F and that is the one in the 32 now. Now the 30 has 105 teeth on the flywheel, and 20 teeth on the Bendix drive. The Flywheel is in good shape, all the teeth are like new...the starter drive is in good shape also. The starter # on the 30 is 738G.
I agree with you, if the starter doesn't turn then the drive will not engage. Well if I had no current to the starter, how did the drive get hung up...it must have started to turn and then quit.
What is mind blowing is that you hear nothing, yet the drive is hung up and after driving it 10 miles or so you would think something would fly apart if drive stayed engaged. That leads me to believe that the drive is returning ok.
The battery cables are new and all the connections are clean and tight.
Maybe its time to get a new hobby like "Uderwater basket weaving"

Yep, Raymondo is correct.....the starter does not go through the ammeter. I was talking starter but thinking generator. Give me another beer and I will be okay!

Leo, you are working against yourself here. Both starters are incorrect for your '30 and your '32! And, the Bendix gears in both starters that you are currently using are different than the Bendix gear in the 714-L starter, which is the correct one for your 1930 and 1932. Both the 1930 and 1932 flywheel ring gears have 104 teeth, not 105! And, also the Bendix gear on the 714-L starter has 10 teeth. As I remember, the Bendix gear on the 738-G starter has 9 teeth. Neither Bendix drive gears have 20 teeth!

You must have the correct Bendix gear with the right number of teeth for your flywheel or she just ain't a gonna work! :eek: :eek: :( :( :(

Hang on, I'm going to see if I can count properly, first a couple of brewski's Then I'll go out and start counting again...what comes after two???

I think the two choices are 10 and 11 teeth, not 9.

Well Raymondo, it looks like my memory is correct (that doesn't happen very often)! It's 9 teeth. I just went out into the shop and checked my Bendix drive book and for the 738-G starter the book calls for 9 teeth on the Bendix Drive. Pulled two used 738-G starters out of stock and both have 9 teeth on the Bendix drive gears. Checked two new old stock Bendix drives that I have in stock for the 738-G starter and they both have 9 teeth as well. :cool2:

Ok,Now you know I can't count.Yes your right the drive has only 10 teeth,I just doubled it ...just hate to get caught :o :o You have to admit, I was a lot closer with the ring gear.
Do you know what the 738G belongs to? What is the difference in the drives,they look the same.
Could a drive from a 714L be installed on the 738G?? Are there any drives available? Boy this is getting confusing...all the starters turn the engines over,the only one that dosen't hang up is the no tag,broken nose bolt hole starter that I have no clue what it is except it works fine.
Time for another

Yes, you should be able to use a 714-L drive on a 738-G starter. The two drives are completely different in appearance. The 10 tooth drive (714-L starter) is a big gear with a curved flange on the rear as part of the gear, and the gear turns on a large sprial shaft. The 9 tooth drive for the 738-G starter, has a small gear with a long round housing behind the gear.

Did you also discover that your flywheel ring gear has 104 teeth instead of 105?

The 738-G starter fits 1934-36 All except DC.

Let the parts book speak: 818413 listed in both the 6-cylinder and 4-cylinder parts book. 10 teeth. 342822 10 teeth and exchangeable with the 11 tooth. 342793 10 tooth and interchangeable with 11 tooth. 809691 11 tooth.

Unable to locate a 9 tooth gear in the Chevrolet parts book.

That's all well and good, but we are talking about the 9 tooth Bendix drive (part number 1859020) for the 738-G starter that Leo has on his 1930, which is the incorrect starter for both 1930 and 1932! Okay, let the parts book speak. The drive in the 738-G starter (part number 1859020) fits 1934-36 All except DC, or 1934-37 All except DC, only (depending upon which parts book you look in). The starter drive book verifies that the 1859020 drive assembly has a 9 tooth gear (pinion). The two 738-G starters that I have in stock both have 9 teeth on the Bendix drive gear as they should, as do the two new old stock Bendix drive gears that I also have in stock.

Now, if you will look in your 1929-53 Chevrolet parts book under Group 2.088 (Pinion Starting Motor Drive) you will see part number 1859053 as fitting 1934-37 All (exc. DC), which is the 738-G starter, and the parts book also shows that this Pinion (drive gear) has 9 teeth! :cool2:

I think that the confusion is that you are talking about the drives for the early starters whereas, I am talking about the 10 tooth type of drive that was used in the 714-L starter, vs. the 9 tooth drive used in the 738-G starter that Leo has on his 1930, which, by the way, apparently had the original 9 tooth drive replaced by the 714-L 10 tooth drive at some point in its life so that it would work on the 1930-32 application.

Using the 29-42 Master parts price list, the frame is the same from 29-37, the coils are the same up to 42. Every other part Armature,Drive etc. are the same from 29-34 exc. DA,DB,P . :confused: :confused:
The Flywheel has 104 teeth and is very good,the drive has 10 teeth and is also good.The battery is fully charged 6.4v at the starter. The starter draw is 180 amps cold. Both cars have HD batterys and are new. My plan of attack is to put the meter's in the 32 and wait until it does it again and when the 30 is registered do the same thing.
The frame of the starter of the 32 is 1107061 6F and yesterday I tried at the parts store to find out what it belonged to, but no luck.

The nose cones are different. One fits 34-35 All (exc. DC), another fits 1937 only, yet another fits 1938-41 All and so on. As mentioned in the previous posting, the Bendix drive for 1934-37 All (exc. DC) does not fit the 714-L starter because the drive only has 9 teeth. The Bendix drive springs for 1934-37 are also different than the springs used in the 714-L starter. The armatures are interchangeable, even though one is listed for 1929-34 and another is listed for 1934-37. Their overall lengths are different by one-quarter inch.