VCCA Home Forums TECHNICAL - 1945 AND EARLIER 1937-1945 Engine Clatter 216 engine

Im new to the forum (today) but looking for an answer to the engine problem in my 38 chevy PU 216 motor. Seems to run good at idle but when at a higher rev it sounds like a diesel noise. I just bought the truck and have no back ground as to the engine. I have replaced plugs with new ones, timed it and changed the oil. Do not know when the last time it ran. Was not running when I bought it.

Hi Riff,

WELCOME aboard, we are glad to have you join us. We don't make much money, but have a lot of fun.

Your engine sounds like the valves need to be adjusted. Remove the valve cover and operate the engine at idle. Use WD-40 or similar lubricant and direct the stream to the base of each valve. (The bottom of the stem as it enters the head).

When the engine has reached normal temperature, check the valve adjustment.

While the engine is running insure that oil is being pumper up to the rocker arms.

Ray I checked the valve clearance but did not use WD-40. I just made adjustments after the engine was heated up. Are you telling me the stem or stems might be stuck?...thanks for replying..
I will do it again with the WD-40 this time.

It would be normal for rough operating valve stems on an engine that has sat a long time without operating.

Also check for good oil flow to the rocker arms.

Ray: I reset the valves and did use the WD-40 as you said. I still have same problem. I did find that one exhaust and one intake rocker arm was getting less oil than the others, they are at the 5 exhaust and 6 intake. They are getting oil but not pumping as good as the others. Im going to pull the oil pan when I get the chance and check the oilers for direction that they are pumping. You stated that it was normal for an engine that has set for some time to have valve trouble. What else can I do to take care of it? There is a lot of chatter from the rockers but I guess it is normal with solid lifters, yes or no?

You mentioned you changed the oil...probably with detergent oil (which isn't a bad thing). The new oil may have cleaned some of the gunk out of the lower end and clogged the oil pump screen. When you pull the pan be sure to clean the screen. You might also run some Marvel Mystery Oil (known as MMO around here) to clean out the oil line and rocker shafts. It may take several oil changes...or many depending on the engine's condition, to clean out most of the deposits.
And yes, solid lifters do tend to clatter but it's manageable.

It is difficult to diagnose a noise that you can't hear. Kinda like "what color shirt am I wearing right now?"

With the engine running, us a screwdriver with a large plastic handle, touch the screwdriver to the end of a sparkplug and bridge it over to the metal on the engine. The object is to keep that cylinder dead. Listen to any change in engine RPM. If the rods and piston pins are worn it should make a distinct change in the noise coming from the engine.

Did you replace the oil with a light weight detergent oil?

Its normal for some rocker arms to get less oil than the others. As long as there getting oil its OK. The rocker arms/shafts could be worn , restricting the oil supply. I would remove the shafts and see how bad they and the lower bearing surface of the rockers are worn.
There could be some ticking from a solid lifter engine but if the calve train/ rocker arms are not excessivly worn it will not be all that loud....what did you adjust the valve clearence to.
Don't understand the pulling the pan and checking oilers for which way they are pumping. Are you refering to the oil pipes that feed the connecting rod dippers and fill the pan troughs? That has nothing to do with the rocker arms...and the oil pump supplies oil to both.

I set the clearance for the intake at .007 exaust at .013 as book states with engined well wormed up. I changed the oil with 20 wt non detergent. Do not know what was in it befor I got it. The engine is supose to have 36,000 miles on it. Man had a massive stroke and I bought it from his son, wh could not give me much of anything as to what had been done to truck in the past. I had Ac 45 plugs in it when I bought it. I replace with C-46 plugs. The coil was shot. I replaced it with a 12 volt when I changed over to 12 volt system. Oil was very black when I changed it. Timeing was way off when I got it. I do not full understand the Octane setting below the distributor,......

I replaced the oil with 20 wt non detergent oil. I do not know what was in it previouly, since I could not talk to the owner because he had a massive stroke and was not able to comunicate with me. I do not know how long it sat since running last either. It was in the process of being restored. When I got it about 6 weeks ago the body work and frame had been completed, but engine was not running, but complete. I was told by the son it only had 36,000 original miles on it. It is very, very solid and the speedometer and all gauges work. It had the wrong plugs in it, wrong wires, and crossed up plug wires and way out of time. When I got this straightened out it runs fine untill it is reved up and the noise starts.

Riff, My '32 had a clatter at speed that sounded like piston slap or something. When I rebuilt the engine last year I found that the big noise maker was the harmonic balancer that had seperated and was rattling. Something to look at.
Cleon

hey there fellow newby, just another thought as to add with all of the above. Something my dad always told me about his 37 was that he had to keep tightening the rod caps/ oil dippers. he replaced the 216 with a 39 engine to solve it....

There was no difference in that part of the engine from 1937-1947. I would suspect that his 1937 engine was well used and the rod journals were out-of-round.

I ordered new push rods today. I have a couple that wobble a little. Most are pitted, top and bottom. After I change them out we will see if it makes a difference.

I have now changed the oil again with 5W30 and added some Marvel Mystery Oil, but it has made no noticeable differenc.

If the push rods make no difference then I will check the wear on the rod end caps and check their torque.

Riff, as suggested above, it would be a good idea to inspect the rocker arms and shafts for excessive wear while you are waiting for the push rods to arrive. Look closely at the rocker arms where they contact the top of the valve stems. If they are excessively worn in that area, you would not get a good adjustment with a flat-blade feeler gauge.

I have read a few articles on the oil for older model engines and it is recommended to use motor oil in these engines that is for a desiel engine. The newer oils does not have the additives it used to have. these articles were in Hemmings News and Old Cars Weekly from reliable sources. I have a 66 trk 292 6cy and started using the desiel oil and was amazed at the improvement in the smoothness sound of the engine and on the compression test all cylinders would not hold the compression but started and run every day in the process of rebuilding engine as it uses a lot of oil. Don

Donald,
Did you read the last article in Old Cars. It stated that the level of zinc was only reduced and there is still zinc in the oil. The oils were tested on two flat tappet engines and caused no problem There is still more zinc in todays SM oil then there was in the oil when your 292 was new. This is another scare like you can not use unleaded gas in older engines.
If the 15W-40 oil made your engine more quiet it is only because it is "thicker" when hot .

Don, Also be aware that the Diesel 15W-40 oils refined in the last several months also has the reduced amount of zinc. If the rating letters on the bottle are SL its OK but the later is rated as SM and has the reduced zinc level.

Also dont start using diesel oil in any engine unless it has very recently had a rebuild. Diesel oil has a higher detergent content which cleans out the carbon build up behind the rings and allows compression blow by and leave oil film which burns.
If used in a engine from full rebuild it has not been identified as a cause of problems, it also leaves the engine internals much cleaner by taking any blow by material (which causes the sludge) out with the oil change. It would be advisable to fit a oil filter and if possible a full flow type.
Tony

Well my five new NOS push rods came today. Opened them up and they were the wrong ones. Hope the guy will take them back.

The length was 12-5/8 inch, end to lifter was too small, end to rocker arm too large. I'll know next time everything advertised as 1938 is not necisarily 1938.

I should have had the guy measure before shipping them.

I have now narrowed my engine problem down to #5 or #6 cylinder. Going to pull oil pan again tomorrow and check torque on connecting rod bolts, alignment of dippers and check wear on #5 and #6 connecting rod bearings. Hope all I have to do is remove a shim and retorque.

Riff do you have a full dimentional drawing and specifications on the pushrods for a 1938 216 engine? If you do would you please scan it and email it to me? I don't have that information and I have several sets of pushrods I need to sort out. Thanks.

What length of your old push rods? Are they the shorter 1940 push rods and the lifters have been replaced with the 1940 lifter where the push rod sits on top of the lifter? The 1940-52 lifters are 10 7/16" long.

Hey Gene.......don't you mean that the push rods are 10 7/16" long?

:) :grin:

Mr Mack, I do not have a full dimentional drawing and specifications on the pushrods for a 1938 216 engine? I only know the 37-38-39 took the 12-47/64 inch rod.

I have a post for information on the different lengths used thru other years. I posted it today....Riff

Hey Gene, I did not measure my push rods today but they were at least a 1/4 longer than the 12-47/64 ones, close to 12 15/16 inch I would think.. Im now stumped as to what year engine I got. Or maybe somone has put the wrong rods in. Yes the rods set down on the lifter. The rods in it now hava a smaller concave cup where the adjusting bolt sets in from the rocker arm. And the ones in it now have a larger end that sits on lifter than the 12-47/64 do. I got to check the casting number to find out if there has been an engine swap tomorrow. It is in a truck and I remember it started with a K.