VCCA Home Forums TECHNICAL - 1945 AND EARLIER 1912-1928 Car won 't start

It was running fine, no problems at all. Last week I got in it and it turned over fine but that was all.

Starting at the plugs I worked my way back. No fire at the plugs. Points fire fine. There's spark from the small wire to the distributor and fire from the ignition switch to the coil. There is however no fire from the large coil wire that goes to the distributor.

Here's what really has me confused. The amps gauge does not move when I turn the switch on. Neither does it move when I step on the starter button.

Other than 5 gallons of diesel fuel and a match does anyone have any suggestions?

Thanks in advance.

The ammeter shouldn't register when you engage the starter. And, if the distributor points are open when the switch is turned on the ammeter should not register.

Did you check your coil to see if it is bad, and how about your condenser?

:) :grin:

Okay, settle down, we have to look at this problem logically and go from there.

Everything checks out down the line except fire from the coil. So we should consider changing the coil.

What is the ampmeter telling us. Nothing happens and should not happen when we press the starter. The ampmeter is NOT in the starter circuit.

Since the ampmeter needle doesn't show a discharge, there is a problem in the ignition circuit. However the needle will only deflect if there is current flowing. That is, when the points are closed. They will NOT show a deflection when the points are open "or there is a problem in one of the components", like a bad coil for instance.

Your next step is to try a different coil.

Just send me a PM with directions or a street address and I will drive down and haul it off for you, no charge!

Don't listen to these other guys. They will just try to help you fix it, but with these old cars they don't stay fixed for but 4 or 5 years, then you have to do something else to keep them running! I would try a new coil if there isn't a hot spark at the coil wire, however if the points aren't working correctly or the distributor cap center connection to the rotor or the neagtive wire is somehow shorted there won't be any high tension juice. it probably isnt worth messing with, I need to haul it off.

Bring your Chevy Mack and I'll use parts off of it until mine is running again.

Once upon a time I had a 46 Plymouth Business Coupe (can I say Plymouth here?). I bought it in 1970 and still had it when I went to Iraq in 2003. I have no idea how many times I replaced plugs, points, condensor, distributor cap, plug wires, etc. I even rebuilt it twice. But in the 33 years I owned it I never once had to replace the coil.

I'll buy another this week along with a condensor. This will make the third or fourth coil that has been on it in 2 1/2 years.

Hi rbl2,

You are not hiding something we need to know? Like you have changed it to a 12-volt system?

The primary circuit in a coil going bad is like finding gas at less than $2.00 a gallon.

The only changes that I have made are to replace old parts with new parts, all 6 volt.

I grew up with 6v systems and see nothing wrong with them. They worked fine in their day and they work fine now if everything else is in working order.

Like I said about that Plymouth, in 33 years I never had a need to change a coil. Changed everything else several times over but never the coil.

My 1934 still has the original coil....and thats 73 years old.

I know about these new imported coils. i have had the same type of luck with them, Delco seems to be the worst, check out their point of origin. I have better luck with NAPA coils. Your Mayflower still around? Don't forget the button in top of the cap it can also be bad. The last cap I found outside of the old car vendors was at a shop that sells welding machine parts. The 4 cylinder engine on our welder uses the same cap and distributor with a different gear and shaft. I worked on the 28 today. Packed the WP and charged the battery. I have two new tires to mount. I probably have a box of parts I can use to fix your 28...after I get it home!

All the coils I have used came from NAPA. The same dealer as a matter of fact. I probably buy 95% of all my auto parts from NAPA.

When I left for Iraq I paid a "friend" to keep the Plymouth for me. I came home unexpectdly 14 1/2 months later due to an injury. This "friend" was seen literally a few days after my return by my son who informed him I was back and that he (my son) and I would be by in a week or two to get the car. Neither he nor my car has been seen since. That was Dec. 04. NO ONE has seen him. Not family, not friends. We have searched for him and the car but neither has yet to be found.

If you have an extra tire that would pass for a spare I could put it to use. You can leave it behind when you try to take my car home with you. As a matter of fact, why not leave your 28 here. I could use it for a parts car. :grin:

These are the only pictures I have of the Plymouth that are ready to be posted on line. Admittedly, they were taken in better days but she still wasn't far from that when I left her behind. She had been an almost daily driver the entire 33 years I owned her.

Update... I replaced the coil and condenser with new ones to no avail. Any suggestions? I'm beginning to like the idea of kerosene and a match.

Have you ruled out the lack of fuel as being the problem?
After all you probably have done everything to check out the ignition, or have you? have you connected the positive lead of an analog multimeter (dc volts) to the lead going to the points? you should get a swing up and then down from 6 volts as the engine is cranked by the starter and the points open and close. I assume you have a more modern coil with a condenser connected to that negative wire from the coil and grounded at the mounting band. You have checked for a circuit from that wire thru the breaker points to check continuity ,on a resistance scale (low ohms) and know that the circuit opens and closes when the points are open and closed? Then you also know that the rotor is moving around the contacts on the cap with the top connection engaging the button on the inside of the cap? If you don't know about the quality of the spark use a pair of vise grips to hold a spare spark plug to a good ground on the engine head or block connect the lead from #1 sparkplug to this plug where you can see the electrode end and have a helper crank the engine with the starter and with the ignition switch on. You should get a good blue spark every couple of revolutions.

If that don't work forget the kerosene and call me. I will bring a trailer to your place and haul the stubborn beast home. Where it can be beaten severely about the headlights until it becomes docile and decides it should start running!

I will bring you a goodly size jug of good smooth drinking sour mash Ky bourbon to ease your pain....

Definitely not a lack of fuel.

I have another idea. Why not come here and try some of my home made corn mash and/or rum? Something I learned to do when I was young and dumb. Now I'm just old and dumb. While you're here and still sober maybe between the two of us we can figure it out.

To answer your questions, pretty much no. I don't understand all that 'lectrical stuff. I have a large digital multimeter from NAPA but the instructions that came with it are kinda vaque.

I do know the points are firing. The rotor and cap are good, maybe two years old and less then 1,000 miles. I have new ones due tomorrow just to be safe. The coil is new and also from NAPA. There is no fire to the plugs.

Oh, almost forgot. When you come here to get some of that home made corn liquor bring your 28 so we can use it to look at and see if all the innards on mine are like yours. After that we can take known working parts off yours and put them on mine until mine is running again. :grin:

Another thing. I need a spare tire. Bring me an extra tire if you have one. :grin:

Hi,
Have you checked to see if the distributer is turning while you are cranking the car over?Perhaps a stripped timing gear or stripped distributer gear?

rbl2,
I am assuming that you now have spark from the coil wire going to the distributer while cranking engine (indicates coil, condenser, points are in good working condition along with distributer shaft turning) but no spark to any of the spark plugs.

Problem has to be in distributer cover or roter. Clean distributer cover center contact with emery paper (I believe is carbon graphite and can become covered with a hard non-conducting oxide of some sort). Also clean the rotor center contact (maybe bend up slightly for better contact) and the tip of the rotor and inside the distributer cap contacts with emery paper.

There is no spark from the secondary wire, the wire that goes to the center of the distributor cap to the coil.

Today I have to pick up a new cap, rotor button and points (not that I believe for one second I need them). When time allows I'll install them.

I also plan on replacing wires and checking ground connections. If everything is new except the wiring harness then a simple process of elimination dictates the problem is there.

I have one more favor to ask of everyone. Will someone please come over here and beat me with a ball bat. I might feel better.

If there is no spark from the wire that goes from the center of the coil to the distributor then the problem is in the coil or points or condensor. Is the outside part of the condensor grounded? If not no spark! If there is spark across the points when bridging across them with a screwdriver and little to none when the points open and close then the points are the problem.

This is not rocket science. The points are a switch that make and break the ignition circuit. The condensor stores a charge and the coil increases the voltage from 6 to ~ 20,000. The high voltage travels to the center of the distributor to the rotor that selects which cylinder spark plug wire receives the voltage. The spark plug produces the spark to ignite the gas/air mixture. If you follow the electricity from the ignition switch to the coil to the points back to coil back to the distributor and then to the plugs you should eventually find where it fails.

New condenser and coil. Fire to the coil and to the points. The points fire. No fire to the coil or plugs. I'll be busy the next few days but when I can I'll get out there and start checking grounds.

The key to the 20000 volt high tension spark is due to three things. The windings of the primary part of the coil (low number of windings) and the secondary winding (high number of windings) which terminates with the high tension lead to the center of the coil. The third factor in the high tension spark generation is the opening and closeing of the points which opens and grounds the negative terminal of the coil. This makes the coil act like a step up transformer (the make break, make, break is responsiable for the required alternating current that makes a transformer work) Without this make, break, make, break action on the negative coil lead there will not be a high tension voltage generated in the high tension lead to the center terminal of the distributor cap. The generally accepted method for a ordinary shadetree mechanic to evaluate the coil's performance is to change it out with one that is supposed to be in good condition or a "new one" AFTER being sure the full primary ignition voltage is on the positive terminal of the coil,and negative wire is connected to the breaker points, the point gap is set and a good condenser is in the circuit, also that the cap, rotor, and coil high tension lead are good. Ordinary test lights and standard resistance and conductivity tests with a multimeter aren't always a good test of the coil. As Chipper infered this is basic electricity applied to the internal combustion engine, true 19th century engineering.
Surely not rocket science or what we have in the "Mysteroius world of computer electronics! Old Ben Franklin started quite a deal didn't he?

Ben Franklin is otherwise occupied so can you come over this weekend and demonstrate all that stuff on my car for me?

I'm gonna be busy today. Hopefully tomorrow I'll be able to play with the car some more.

Well I could, But That would be cheating!

Maybe I should tie a kite to the ignition key and wait for a thunder storm. :eek:

I believe I'll have time today to start checking voltages and grounds and wires and whatever.

Could it be someting wrong in the starter switch? In your first post you wrote that the amps gauge does not move when you turn the switch on or when you step on the starter button.

When I bought my 1922 490 there was no key to the starter and ignition switch. Instead the wiring was changed and the key replaced by a simple, modern, plastic switch. I had a key made and I restored the wiring, but then I got problem. A couple of times it happend, as I was driving, that the engine suddenly stopped. I also noticed, that sometimes as I was going to start the engine and turned the key to the correct position (a quarter turn) the amps gauge first moved, then almost immediately moved back to the zero position. And the engine didn't start. Now as I turn the key I turn it to a position just before or just after the "correct" position. And the engine starts an runs perfect. I think that the contacts in the starter and ignition switch are too worn. Of course I have to do something to fix it, but I haven't got the time yet. Anyone's got some ideas?

RBL2's problem is not likely related to a switch as he has a spark at the points. I also have a problem with the ignition switch on my 19 FB but it is due to a misalignment of the switch pieces. I need to remove it, take it apart, clean the contacts and put it back together with all parts properly aligned. Then I will no longer need to wiggle the key, and fiddle with the postion.