VCCA Home Forums TECHNICAL - 1945 AND EARLIER 1937-1945 Oil Pan Blues

I've got an oil pan on my '37 Master (216) with a reamed out plug hole. A relative suggested fixing it with a Helicoil (sp?). He's says you can just install it without removing the pan. I'm a little dubious about this:

1.I might not be able to run the drill and the tapwrench straight,making the thing worse.
2.I'm liable to leave metal shavings and that tab thing you have to knock off the Helicoil after you've screwed it in the hole. I can't imagine that's gonna be good for the engine.

So, I'm thinking the pan really should be removed. Even better, I'm thinking that maybe I oughta replace the pan, period. That's proving to be hard to find.

I tried some oversized plug bolts; the one that came out of it looked oversized, to begin with. I also tried a rubber plug, strictly as a temporary measure. It was temporary alright; as soon as the oil got good and hot it leaked like there was barely a plug at all, and got about 2 quarts of oil all over the floor. I did tighten the thing. Really! lol

Anyway, opinions on this subject will be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

Obob

The self-tapping drain plugs come in three or four oversizes. Finding a larger oversize would be my first choice if the car were mine. That drain plugs was used by Chevrolet for many years.

Obob
If the plug you removed is the max oversize I think you best remove the pan. the nut the plug fits into is generally welded to the pan and therefore can be replaced with an ordinary nut of the right thread welded in place of the original.
Tony

I have a NOS oil pan if that will help. I sent you a private message.

Wow! I thought this was gonna be a place for answers, and I think I was right!

I had ordered the three oversized self-threading plugs from Chevs Of The 40's; the one coming out of the pan most closely matched the triple oversized one; none of them will get tight. I also started to try a 5/8ths one I got at the local parts store. It didn't wanna go at all, and being afraid to crack the pan, I didn't push it. It goes into the hole, as the outside hole is kinda out of round, shaped more like the end of your forefinger than a good round hole. But then it really gets tight, even I can tell it's too big, which if that's actually a nut, explains that.

So now,let me throw this into the mix. When I changed the oil, using SAE30 non detergent, I was only able to get 4 quarts in before the dipstick read full. Knowing that it oughta hold 5, I'm wondering if the pan is so full of gunk that it's making a difference in capacity, and would that be a really bad thing?

So, I guess I'm thinking out loud some more, here. Btw, I should introduce my car: We call her "Ol Satin"; she's been in the family since new. She was orginally gunmetal color, but my great-grandfather, being reallly tight with the dollars, decided he could keep her painted with black screen paint and a 2 inch brush. He'd paint a section each year; after a coat or two like this, my great grandmother gave her the name "Satin". It kept the rust off, but didn't do much for the shine. lol Now that's she's 70 years old, the car's "Ol Satin".

Ol Satin is special to this outfit; my mother rode it to school when she was a kid; my dad used to service it, when him and my mom were newlyweds. It's the car I wanted when I first got interested in old cars (I was about 11). I've even got the original car tag, plus a bunch of pamphlets and guides and stuff.

Well, enough of that. I'm surely greatful to you all who've kindly responded or will respond, here. I appreciate any feedback or ideas; unlike my late father, I'm pretty klutzy about mechanic work. Thanks!

Obob

Hey Obob, I would suggest you join the VCCA and a local region as I think you'll find we not a bad bunch of folks, and most of us even shower daily. Seriously, we're pretty good at keeping the old cars on the road and there are many more members with a collective wealth of knowledge that don't participate on-line.

The offer from Chevy B is probably a good one...he's been around for a long time and knows his parts. I'll bet that when you replace your pan with his NOS one you'll be able to get 5 quarts in Ol' Satin. Be sure to clean the screen on the oil pump when you drop the pan.

As to oil types, you can search this site for several exhaustive threads where we have discussed single weight vs. multi-weight, detergent vs. non, etc.

Good luck!

Coach

Obob, I would strongly recommend removing and cleaning the pan. These engines had a very fine screen on the oil pump and more often than not it is plugged up with sludge due to use of non-detergent oils. Also its not unusual to have the connecting rod oil trough pipes in the pan plugged up. Sooner or later all this could cause a connecting rod bearing to burn out.
When everything is clean 5 Qts. of oil will bring the oil up to the F in full, which is a little above the full mark. When 1 Qt. low it will be about 2/3's down on the cross hatch marks.

Here's an update:

Right now, I've got a NOS oil pan. Many thanks to ChevyB. My dealings with him were top rate!

In the process of checking the trough nozzles, I've noticed that one of them isn't letting through either water or compressed air . I tried running a tiny wire through, figuring there's some sort of old "packing lube" in the tube, or hardened dust or something, something easily expected in even an NOS thing that's 70 years old. I don't see any crimps in the tubes. The wire went about through maybe the first bend.

So, does anyone here have a neat trick or good idea that'll open up that tube? I also tried shooting a little WD40, and even some Superclean into the thing, though maybe not enough. The other 5 tubes are working fine. Thanks all!

Obob-who's also sent in his VCCA membership application; I just keep gettin' deeper 'n deeper into this thing...lol

With new pans its most common to find spider nests in the pipes.
Would try a little liquid drain cleaner (flush with water first to remove what you squirted in there)

I had the same problem with a NOS pan about a year ago. I used a garden hose with one of those adjustable "high pressure" nozzles (the kind that are about four inches long and taperd and adjusted with a twisting of the forward part of the nozzel)to flush out a spider web chunk. It worked like a champ. I checked all the tubes with running water and "eyeballed" the flow rate to make sure they were all the same. I dried it with compressed air and in the sun (let it sit several hours in the sun) and hit it again with compressed air to make sure all the tubes were flowing equally. The challenge was getting the pan back on the block. Since then I've put about 250 miles on Old Blue without a problem. Chevgene, ChevyB and others in chat were real helpful in coaching me thru the learning experience.
37Blue

You might consider using some carburetor cleaner, if all else fails. It seems to dissolve everything but metal. Yes, it is a lot of "fun" to get the pan back on there correctly, especially if you are laying on your back, trying to keep all the cork pieces in place at the same time, alone.

Welcome to the VCCA!

Let me suggest, once you start getting the G&D (our monthly magazine), that you consider writing up the story of Ol' Satin, and the long family history. Many folks would enjoy reading about it, I'm sure.

Good luck!

And by the way - where is "Nature's Air-Conditioned City?"

Ok, folks: I tried some Draino Gel; that didn't seem to budge the blockage. I ran some water with my nozzle on "Jet" setting". I had tried some Gumout, along with the WD-40, earlier. Actually had the Draino running out of the other nozzles. I suspect I just wasn't getting the stuff into the blockage area. I also suspect I didn't give it enough time; about 15 minutes, as it was getting too dark to see. So, I'll try all of this stuff again, tomorrow and maybe give it more time. I shouldn't be surprised at these spider nests; they're really some of nature's master engineers. Thanks for the advice, all!

ChevyGuru: Nature's Air-Conditioned City-Bluefield, WV.

It's about 100 miles north of Winston-Salem, NC, about a hundred miles west of Roanoke, VA, about 90 miles south of Charleston, WV, and maybe about 90 miles northeast of Bristol, VA/TN. In short, it's about a hundred miles from anywhere! lol

The nickname comes from the gimmick of the Chamber of Commerce offering free lemonade whenever it gets over 90; of course, it's funny-they use the airport thermometer, and it's at an even higher elevation than the actual town! I think one year they had to give the stuff away 7 times, and it nearly broke the budget! Normally, once or twice a year, they could easily not give it away at all.

Btw, that's an interesting notion about writing an article; I'm probably a better writer than I'll ever be a mechanic, so I just might do that! I know I won't break anything, anyway...

Obob

I would try the liquid rather than the gel. It may penetrate better.....and leave it soak for several hours.

Yeah, ChevyGene, I thought about that, afterwards. And the long soak, that sounds good too.

Btw, I've read several of your posts about installing oil pans. If I recall correctly, at least one of 'em stated that you put the side gaskets up against the block, using grease to hold 'em in place, and that you've fabricated 4 threaded studs as guides for the pan. How long would that setup work before the gaskets pull away? Do you also run a bead of gasket sealer on the pan?

The thing I was initally gonna go by, found online, said to stick the gasket to the sealer on the pan. It also says to put sealer on the end gaskets, let it seat a few minutes, and then put them into the grooves on the main bearing caps, and let them set a few minutes. Then you put gasket sealer where the end gaskets are going to contact the pan.

Does any of this sound right? Thanks!

Obob

Well, folks, I'm now moving again on this oil pan thing.

I finally took the NOS pan to a radiator shop; the guy blew out whatever was blocking the tube. I suspect he just had decent pressure in his water lines; anyway, all six of 'em shot water really good after he got done with it! Pan tubes have now been alignment checked(they didn't seem to need to be messed with) and all looks well, there.

So, tonight, after several cleaning sessions, I removed the screws and bolts holding on the pan. Betcha' you can guess what happened: The pan still needs maybe an eighth of an inch on each end clearance to finally come off. It's loose, and I scraped away all the gook, but it still doesn't wanna come on down.

It looks to me like maybe the lower flywheel housing is gonna have to also come off or at least be loosened; is this correct? If so, does it have any gaskets that I'm gonna have to replace? If not; then what am I missing here?

Btw, I felt around the loose oil pan; the gasket is attached to the block, not to the pan. Score another one for Chevygene, lol! I think I'm also gonna make me some studs to make putting this thing back on, a lot easier.

Opinions and advice are most welcomed. Thanks All!

Obob

The lower flywheel cover (sheet metal) must be removed....easy 4 bolts (horizontal)
The extension (sheet metal) above it must be removed. ...easy 4 bolts (verticle)Or is it 2 ?
On my 1939 passenger car the cross member must be removed. 4 bolts on each side plus 2 for the motor mounts.
The pan will then slip out.

When installing the new gasket the side pieces must be stuck up onto the block first. I use grease as I may be the next person removing it. The studs keep it from sliding around. They can not be stuck on the pan first as the ends of the end corks fit over the side gaskets....Then the end corks must be installed. The originals used to come pre-formed and they went right up in place. The modern ones come straight and can be difficult to curve and stay in place. A little sealer can be put on the each end of the corks to help seal where they but up against the side cork. ...pardon me if I already posted this.
I always fill the oil troughs before puting up the pan. Helps the rods to get lubrication sooner.
Keep us informed. :)

PS- I hope you cleaned the oil screen

Thanks Gene! Yeah, it looks just like what you're writing here: 4 horizontal bolts on the cover, 2 on the extension are what I see. Ditto on the gasket kit, too.

More to come...

Obob

Alright, off is the pan! In addition to removing the bell cover pan and the extension, I had to take off the cross member; it turned out to not be so hard; I only broke one washer. One of the engine mounts looks totally ok; the other one separated somewhat. Anyone think I should replace them?

The old pan has at least an inch of what almost looks like soft tar in the bottom of it; the oil pump screen was similarly coated, though the actual screen was only about half coated with gunk. Some of it had to be scraped off.

I checked the dippers; all of 'em were ok; the hardest aspect here was getting the dippers at bottom center, when turning the crank. But it worked out fine, fortunately. Oh yeah, I went ahead and scraped the old gaskets off, thinking that might throw off the dipper height tool.

I think maybe one more good cleaning session or two, and then maybe it's time to start putting some of this stuff back together.

More later...

Obob:
The motor mounts delaminate fairly easily. As a quick repair you can rough up the steel surface with 60 grit and clean the rubber, then epoxy them together. Holds pretty well.
The gunk in the bottom is typical, especially in non-detergent oil cars. If you haven't figured it out yet the oil pump screen is removable for cleaning. You will only clean the rest of the block by using detergent oil in the car. Mine took several changes to get the most of the gunk out.
After reassembly and adding oil, you can run the oil pump without firing the engine. If you remove the distributor you'll see the drive for the oil pump. I took a threaded rod and cut a notch in it (just like the distributor end) to match the oil pump drive. Chuck the rod in a drill and give it a spin for a minute or two to circulate oil everywhere. Reinstall the distributor and fire her up!

Coach

Hello folks; I finally tried to get that new oil pan installed.

Btw, Coach, your remove the distributor and spinning the oil pump shaft seems like a really good way to get some oil into all of the places where it oughta go, before firing it up. Thanks!

First, I installed the side pan gaskets. Chevygene's method of using a little grease and some studs seems to work really well.

Next, I tried to install the end corks. This turned out to be something of a disaster, as they wouldn't stay seated, regardless of how much adhesive I applied to them (I tried a little on the ends, a little on the whole track, and a lot on the whole track and ends, depending on how aggravated I was at the moment. How wide should these things be, anyway? I measured the groove as being 3/8" wide. The corks measured 7/16". I'm sure these are supposed to be a snug fit; is this normal?

I set up a sort of jig, using 4 penny finishing nails, stuck in a slab of 2" foam board, to bend the end corks into a more accurate shape. Thanks to my mom for thinking of this one; I probably should've done this at the start.

Finally, at one point I had the corks all more or less lined up, and I attempted to install the pan. The two pipe ends didn't wanna fit, like maybe one of them needs to be bent a little (probably the one in the pan; that's just a guess though). Is this normal, and what's the best approach to getting them lined up?

Anyway, opinions welcomed! Thanks!

The end corks came preformed years ago + they were the correct width so the "stuck" in the groves. The modern replacements are a pain for sure.
I have never found it necessary to "pre oil" the engine after removingg the pan. If you remove a rod or main bearing cap you wll find it dripping with oil inside. As soon as the engine starts pressure is up. I do fill the oil troughs before had to speed the refill time but even that isn't important. Now if it was a complete engine rebuild it would be a different story.

Hello folks! Ah, there's good news tonight; Ol' Satin's got her pan back, and she seems to be running fine with it!

First, I finally got those end corks installed; it took me holding the rear one in place for about an hour, till the gasket sealer set up. The front one went better; it seemed to catch on the track, so I only held it for about half an hour. It turned out that there was nothing wrong with them, sizewise;I think I was just tired when I first fooled with them.

Then came the installation of the pan itself. This wasn't too bad. I used those Chevygene studs I had used to line up the side gaskets with; using a washer and a nut on each stud, I torqued the pan up against the block, working each one a few turns, to keep everything nice and even, and in place. I also found that letting the thing sit for a day or two seemed to make it all go easier, as well.

Then, finally, I got around to reassembling the frame crossmember, with it's hardware. Getting this kind of stuff cleaned and painted was the biggest hassle, here. I used mostly Superclean and elbow grease, for the cleaning. A little Rustoleum rattlecan gloss enamel served as a starter coat, paintwise. The only setback I ran into here involves one of the rear engine mounts. I tried epoxying it back together; it held, but it isn't strong; I think it's gonna have to be replaced, anyway. Oh well, it's always something... :o

So, this afternoon, after trying to not over-torque down whatever I could (and thanks to Bill Barker's 1931chevrolet.com/torque.htm page, I don't think I did so!), I finally got the front end on the ground, and put some oil in her.

I decided that since what I'd learned here has been right on the money, I decided to go along with the idea of using regular 10W-30 oil in the crankcase. There doesn't seem to be a reason not to, especially on a spinner system like on a '37 (no seals). You're not gonna wash everything out of an old engine, anyway. I will keep an eye on things, here, though, just to be sure. :) Sure enough, it held 6 quarts, coming up to the "F" on the dipstick. No leaks, so far. :grin:

So, having placed newspapers down on the floor, in case of any big spills, I started her up. It took a bit, Ol' Satin having not been started in, like 6 weeks , and I flooded it once, but it finally fired up! And it ran like a charm! The oil pressure gauge shot up right away, to about 15 pounds, before quickly settling back to about 6-7 pounds, where it stayed at idle. When I'd crack the throttle, the pressure would rise, then fall back when the throttle was closed. I ran 'er about 30 minutes...no leaks noted! :grin:

I guess I'll see tomorrow whether anything has gone wrong. Here's to hoping otherwise! I also have to admit that having those plug threads on the old pan strip might have been the best thing to have happened to Ol' Satin in a long while, given how cruddy the old pan, pump screen, ect, turned out to be. I just wanna thank everyone here who's helped me with all of this; I would have never gotten it this far without you, or this message board. Thanks a bunch!

I love it when a plan comes together!

I would suggest to retighten the pan bolts after a week or two.

Yeah, Gene, I've already noticed that the hardware on that pan seems to loosen up, from when I initially installed the bolts and screws, to when I torqued them; 3 of the 4 end bolts had to be tightened up before I could torque them.

I suppose it's the nature of those cork gaskets to "settle" over time. I wonder if it wouldn't be smart to simply check all of the oilpan bolts and screws every time I'm supposed change the oil, like every thousand miles, or quarterly, or according to some such schedule. I would expect to tighten things more initially, and less later, yes?

Thanks, Gene, to you especially, your advice has been invaluable on this little project!