VCCA Home Forums TECHNICAL - 1945 AND EARLIER 1933-1936 Battery cranking problem

Having a problem restarting my '31 that has a '33 rebuilt engine. On a cold start the battery turns the engine over kind of slow, but it starts.The car runs fine. I've check the points, timing, battery cable,generator, etc., & everything is correct. When the engine is hot its as if the battery is almost dead. I usually retard the spark on restart & hope it starts. If it still doesn't start I boast it with a 12v one.I've in the past have tried hand cranking it, but its too hard to turn it over.The present battery is 3 yrs old. I've tested the gravity in each cell & they register good. The present battery is a #2 with a CA @940 & CCA @780. Is there a 6 volt battery out there with a higher CCA that would fit in the present battery area?
As always any info is appreciated. chassue57@wmconnect.com

#1-starter needs correct rebuilding.
#2-Poor negative ground cable or poor connection frpm cable to frame or transmission ground.
#3-Undersize positive cable.
#4-Engine still "tight".
#5-From my experiance at 3 years the batteries are still good but yours may not be. Should be load tested.

In regards to the starter just what would I be looking for? I've removed it & jumped it out with the battery & it seems to work fine. Can the engine heat cause the starter to malfunction? I notice that when I jump the battery with a 12 volt the positive cable gets kind of warm. The positive cable is correct in size & the grounding is okay.I'll Take the battery to automotive store to see if they can load test it.

Also I noticed that after I've drivin the car for awhile, that some of the battery cell water is noticeable on the top of the battery surface. Is this normal?? Is the generator possible over charging the battery??

thanks

What is called 'heat rise' in a motor affects its efficiency; the warmer it gets the less power it has, so that's probably one of the contributing factors. Jumping the starter with 12v isn't going to help things in the long run.
I agree with Gene regarding the starter rebuild and the cables...you basically can't have a ground cable that's too large. If I'm not mistaken the cables should be "0" gauge. Also check the connections for rust and corrosion.

Coach

Thanks for the info about the cables/starter & heat. Its kind of warm in Florida now so that may be part of the problem. Well yesterday I rechecked the cables & cleaned them again. Took the starter out & benched tested it. Took it apart& cleaned it. You mentioned that it may need to be rebuilt? Just what needs to possibly be repaired?? Could it possibly be the wrong starter?? Whats there is a Delco Remy , Mod 738G. I was going to look on e-bay to see if I can locate a rebuilt one without having to turn this one in if I can find one down here at one of the local auto shops.

As always thanks for your help.

floridaboy

The 738G is a 1935-36 starter. I don't think that this is correct for a 1933 engine due to the different starter dive gear teeth. I would guess the the housing is a 1935 but has different "gut" installed. I would not waste time and money on an Ebay starter. Nor would I look for one at a local rebuilder. I would check with one of the rebuilders that advertises in the G&D. May cost more but you know it will be correct.

The correct starter would be a model 714-L.

:) :grin:

Do you know where or whom I could possibly contact to locate a 714L starter? Does anyone have a picture of what one looks like? I would like to see what the difference is between the 714L & the 738G that I presently have on the engine. Since this motor is in a '31 car would the "31 flywheel from the original engine fit on the '33 motor? How can I check & it would make a difference with what starter is required,& if in fact that is contributing to my re-starting problem?

Thanks

Did you ever do a load test on your 6 volt battery?

:) :grin:

Haven't had a chance to get a load test done. Tomorrow I was going to see if someone is available to test it ,but being the 4th they may be closed. I'll let you know how I make out.

Yes, definitely start with your battery via the load test and then go from there since the battery would be the first thing to eliminate out of the equation.

:) :grin:

Was able to have the battery load tested & the problem isn't the battery.I'm just wondering if at times it gets vapor locked?? Going to try insulating the fuel lines & see if that helps. Also going to look at the starter switch to check the contacts. I'm open to any other suggestions, ideas you may have.

Anyway have a great 4th!! Hope its sunny where you are. Its raining here.

Thanks again

Is the engine a recent rebuild or well worn in? Pistons, aluminum or cast iron? Hope I didn't overlook the answers to my questions.

From some of your answers it appears it is a tight rebuild?

Another perspective,,,,I have a 33 Chev CA Town Sedan
that starts and runs no problem ,,,,it was frame off
in 95 and has all correct hookups,
However I also have two other fairly original vehicles
with rebuilt engines that were plagued with hot start problems..
...I was ready to commit a mortal sin and go to 12 volt out
of frustration Changing coils,tinfoil on gas lines,etc,
new batteries/rebuilt starter were all tried until I talked to old timers
that had a couple of ideas that fit each car.Both old timers reminded me with a 3/4 century old original car you have multiple
connections and frame/firewall conduit points that may have poor conductivety.These all could take a little out of the starting power and the coil....even if they are both good shape.

For what its worth :

Vehicle #1 1933 Plymouth PC Business coupe.
Engine (rebuilt) started and ran smoothly. Hesitate
to start when warm....sometimes wouldnt.Engine was never
over normal temperature. Frustrating.
Old timer's advice,,,,"look at your ground cable....I bet its a shiny new one!....but a 12 volt(smaller)
He was right when i looked.He reminded me even if I put the correct large gauge to the frame I was still trying to get a full shot through a 70 odd year old frame and connections, He suggested that i make my positive cable the same length as the Negative one and run it directly to the bottom bolt of the starter.He told me to clean the bolt with varsol and not use any lubricant except LPS1 (no petroleum)on the threads.He said take this apart every year and remove any corrosion, but the LPS1 has
kept it perfect.
It started beautifully and no more puhing a pretty car out of the Post office!

Vehicle # 2 38 Ford Pickup...a bitch to start when warm,,,
....tried everything.
Old timers advice:Flat.head Tom" When you have a cold coil you are probably getting close to 6 volts on start up and she will start..but when everything on the train gets a litle worn and warm too you could lose some and the voltage could drop 10% or more.....on a 12v this might not be a problem...but when you got only 6V a loss of a volt may not give you enough spark."
Get all your cables the right size and get rid of
un-necessary connections or braided grounds first.
Then check under the dash and you will find a small
resistor (voltage reducer) near the ignition...most modern 12V cars have a built in bypass on startup.So did some 50s 6v cars too. On the old farm vehicles a dime fit nicely in the bracket and when the truck was warm we popped in a "bluenose" (Canadian dime) 10cent peice for a second to give it full start voltage.
I threw in a "Bluenose" and my old truck started first spin....I now have a starter button (wired across the resistor) under the dash that I give a quick push on warm starts,
Hay wire? I guess...but works great....Im told the 50s 6v regulators have a similar built=in shunt for startup.

Check these out before the expensive stuff....hope it helps....there were millions of 6V cars on the road that started reliably every day..but its frustrating when you get a glitch.....thank god for the last generation that sweated these out,,,,,,,,,Cheers from Canada,,,,,roy

Another perspective,,,,I have a 33 Chev CA Town Sedan
that starts and runs no problem ,,,,it was frame off
in 95 and has all correct hookups,
However I also have two other fairly original vehicles
with rebuilt engines that were plagued with hot start problems..
...I was ready to commit a mortal sin and go to 12 volt out
of frustration Changing coils,tinfoil on gas lines,etc,
new batteries/rebuilt starter were all tried until I talked to old timers
that had a couple of ideas that fit each car.Both old timers reminded me with a 3/4 century old original car you have multiple
connections and frame/firewall conduit points that may have poor conductivety.These all could take a little out of the starting power and the coil....even if they are both good shape.

For what its worth :

Vehicle #1 1933 Plymouth PC Business coupe.
Engine (rebuilt) started and ran smoothly. Hesitate
to start when warm....sometimes wouldnt.Engine was never
over normal temperature. Frustrating.
Old timer's advice,,,,"look at your ground cable....I bet its a shiny new one!....but a 12 volt(smaller)
He was right when i looked.He reminded me even if I put the correct large gauge to the frame I was still trying to get a full shot through a 70 odd year old frame and connections, He suggested that i make my positive cable the same length as the Negative one and run it directly to the bottom bolt of the starter.He told me to clean the bolt with varsol and not use any lubricant except LPS1 (no petroleum)on the threads.He said take this apart every year and remove any corrosion, but the LPS1 has
kept it perfect.
It started beautifully and no more pushing a pretty car out of the Post office!

Vehicle # 2 38 Ford Pickup...a bitch to start when warm,,,
....tried everything.
Old timers advice:Flat.head Tom" When you have a cold coil you are probably getting close to 6 volts on start up and she will start..but when everything on the train gets a litle worn and warm too you could lose some and the voltage could drop 10% or more.....on a 12v this might not be a problem...but when you got only 6V a loss of a volt may not give you enough spark."
Get all your cables the right size and get rid of
un-necessary connections or braided grounds first.
Then check under the dash and you will find a small
resistor (voltage reducer) near the ignition...most modern 12V cars have a built in bypass on startup.So did some 50s 6v cars too. On the old farm vehicles a dime fit nicely in the bracket and when the truck was warm we popped in a "bluenose" (Canadian dime) 10cent peice for a second to give it full start voltage.
I threw in a "Bluenose" and my old truck started first spin....I now have a starter button (wired across the resistor) under the dash that I give a quick push on warm starts,
Hay wire? I guess...but works great....Im told the 50s 6v regulators have a similar built=in shunt for startup.

Check these out before the expensive stuff....hope it helps....there were millions of 6V cars on the road that started reliably every day..but its frustrating when you get a glitch.....thank god for the last generation that sweated these out,,,,,,,,,Cheers from Canada,,,,,roy