VCCA Home Forums TECHNICAL - 1945 AND EARLIER 1937-1945 From sunny CA....

There, that doesn't seem like all that much to lose if your car is totally stock otherwise. In response to the muffler deduction, I think there would be an argument for minimum point deductions if all that has happened is the muffler has been removed while the pipes run in the original configuration. Although I am not sure if "straight pipe" means no muffler or literally straight pipe. If lowered is done with spacers then that would seem to not warrant full deduction either (only the U bolts are different from stock) and if lowered is like sagging suspension you could argue no deduction.

I do think the 38 in the photos will have a little bit of a hard time. The things I see that are questionable are artillery wheels, bumper and bumper guard stripes, chrome headlight molding, missing headlight retainer ring, something odd with the windshield wipers, fog lights, fog light mounts, to name a few that raise an eyebrow

Brian

This is exactly the kind of responses I was hoping to see, and I really appreciate a judge and likely a senior member chime in on this, as this is very good information to know!

The 38 shown is admittedly farther from stock than most of the cars in our local club; this is by the owners choice and are obviously "preference" items I'm sure everyone can relate to (the fogs are actually GM passing lamps not shown in catalogs until 1940, the "A" grill guard is aftermarket, the headlight rims are chrome, and so on). My 37 is a work in process, and one thing someone may have picked up on are the chrome foglight stands, though I have a second pair in the original finish, and I would change these out for if I were going to be competitive.

But I have researched (with the help of Chevgene) and determined that my foglights are indeed the correct, one year only units that should be used on a 37, and I have seen in G & D 1st place winning 37s that run the (in my opinion incorrect) 38s. And I would hope those dealer frames wouldn't get a deduction!

This isn't being said from a sour grapes perspective, simply that even the "lowered and piped" set seek out and find correct parts and accessories. It does seem like a lowered/piped car could score pretty well even with the points hits, and that is very interesting and encouraging (it might REALLY shake things up if a lowered and piped car won 1st place at a show, but this could also bring in some new membership if some "CA types" were to see that!). :)

How is "stock height" determined? From factory test photos all the way to advertising and publicity shots, the "original" stance could vary wildly from what I have seen! I still contend that if a "stock" style car had new or re-arched springs, this could result in a stance HIGHER than original - are there measurements from a standard reference to determine this? Maybe point deductions (don't laugh) should be determined by the number of inches lower or HIGHER that a car is from "stock", once we get a standard reference for height - and how would that standard reference be determined? That seems like a fair question in all of this, as it should probably go both ways.

I totally agree with the assessment on pipes and exaust manifolds, and maybe this is something that could get more scrutiny - should a stock manifold that has been cut and welded on getting more of a point deduction than (original) Fenton headers, having glass packs vs. just straight pipes, etc., etc.

Finally, what are methods for "proving" that an accessory is correct? The basic accessory booklets seem like the best measure, but are original photos, dealership photos, or other parts number guide used as well? Another item on my car folks may have noticed is the grill guard (and matching one on the rear). These are not in a catalog, but are shown numerous times in origianl Chevy dealer literature as well as in photos I have unearthed that are original B & Ws that say "brand new Chevy" on the back. Without the benefit of a "numbers match" to prove a car did or did not have an accessory "as delivered" (unless you had an original invoice!), this subject is really interesting to me.

What great information for us all, I am so glad we can discuss all of this and learn more in the end about our beloved Chevys.

BTW, I was recently rained out on a show here, so we don't always have a day like the one shown! :)

Thanks everyone, as always!

Richard,
As Brian pointed out there were a few other items that were questionable. I would like to point out that it is very hard to make up ground when you are already in the hole for anywhere from 50 -75 points



There should be no deduction for the plate frames, remember as delivered to the public by the dealer I know that AACA can make a deduction for them



Too bad, there is a lot more to the VCCA than judging, it is a shame that someone would only join only if they win an award



Yes it could, but that owner while still incorrect is trying to restore the stock height while you are intentionally trying to lower it. I feel you are really trying to reach here to justify your modification. I would suggest be more concerned with your car than the other car, it makes for more friends.



Can be tricky, but if there are three or four cars together it is pretty easy to tell there is a difference, and which one is wrong.



Is a foul ball any less foul when it is close to the line? It is either correct, or incorrect to either condition as the case for the guys with the over arched springs, or it is authenticity in the case of the guy who intentionally lowers the springs




If I see something I know is wrong (on the years I know) I will still ask the owner to document it, I give them that option and also a can correct some misinformation they might have. As far as documention sometimes you need it most times you don't. But every restoration involves research when you are striving for "as it left the dealer"

Please PM me your mailing address and I will send you a judging manual and form so you can get a better idea of what we are about from coast to coast.

To be honest your car looks great, (I REALLY WOULD LIKE TO SEE A PHOTO OF UNDER THE HOOD) please don't take this wrong but I am confused as to why you would go through all of that trouble to maintain correctness just modify exhaust and height, and expect an organization that really is not about that to change it's rules. It would be like me bringing my 62 to a street rod show and expect them to change their rules so I could win. A restored car winning in an environment like that would just dilute the value of the award from that particular street rod club, and the same would hold true for us. I might be the wrong guy to mention exhaust exemptions to, I searched for years to find the correct NOS resonators and cut tail pipes for my car, while I could have opted for a less expensive way, I wanted that as delivered look.

Enjoy your car, there is a lot more to this hobby than getting trophies. The VCCA is a great club, and I hope you enjoy it.
Later
John

John, I really appreciate it that you took the time to respond to all of my questions and comments.

I will give it to you and the club pretty straight - in my experience, the "CA types" I refer to tend to like cars with a lot of GM correct accessories (it's almost the name of the game out here), and strive diligently to maintain originality (yep, underhood I even have correct hose clamps, GM marked hoses, cloth wrapped wiring, 6 volt electronics with Delco pieces, correct radiator cap, etc.). To many out here, a slightly lowered stance only replicates the original designer’s intent (check out the stance on most of the clay modeling shots) or even matches the stances shown on Chevys in period advertising or photos. I bet many 901+ point cars have panel gaps and color sanded paint that theoretically have taken the same 2 inches off their car that my car has been lowered (!), and that change cannot be returned back to "as delivered". And boy is it intentional! (is that the "overrestored" can of worms I just opened as well?!!)

Sounds like the benefit of the doubt in judging goes to cars that have NO accessories or a stance that is possibly too high, and that seems a little hypocritical to me. Funny how exacting proof is needed for my accessorized car (and I've got it!), but standing back and looking at "3 or 4 cars" lined up and assuming they are "about stock height" by looking at them shows some of the bias and different standards used against accessories and lowered cars. From some of the feedback I have gotten, even skirts and spotlights are immediately associated with "a trunk full of batteries" and "hopping your car around" (check my previous threads!). I won't even go into my rant on radial wide whites, which I bet people are taking the points hit on just to get that "better ride", and seem to be finding more and more acceptance (check out your latest issues of Hemmings Classic Car if you don't believe me, I am seeing them on award winning Cords and Packards for crying out loud!).

If I intentionally restore my car to "as delivered" with 2 changes from stock, and someone else unintentionally has their car too high and missed the color match or has the wrong foglights, I'm not sure which is the lesser of 2 "evils" to tell you the real truth. And as I have said, I have had card carrying members of the VCCA say to myself and others in our local group that we have "ruined" good Chevys, how is that for worrying about our own cars and making more friends? I never thought I might want to measure to see if a Chevy was "too high" and call out the owner on it, but maybe fair is fair here! :)

The modified exhaust is pretty hard to justify from an originality standpoint, I totally admit that, but what can I say, the sound of that sweet 6 with pipes is pretty hard to resist, and this might sound trite, but it really gets kids and young people very enthused about our cars at shows - future VCCA members even?

With all that said, I have from the beginning said that I wouldn't necessarily want to compete in the same exact class as regular, totally "as delivered" cars would be in. A new class, however, that gives a nod to the efforts of those that like their cars to be letter correct (including trying to add EVERY original GM accessory), save for lowering and exhaust changes, would provide an interesting alternative for these types of cars and their owners. I'm not in the club just to win trophies, but I think I would raise the bar on my car and "correct" things just for the fun of maybe winning an award (isn't that why everyone else does it?), and so would others with cars like mine - so we get better restored Chevys for the future in the bargain folks! And we might do a better job of lowering and piping them to keep them that much closer to stock (so it could be changed right back). But frankly, I'm not going to raise it up or change the exaust, but at the same time, I don't want to be judged (or not allowed to be judged!) with cars that are nearly street rods or "daily drivers" with radial wide whites and modern personalized plates and frames, hardware store fasteners and clamps, etc. (that are otherwise thought of as "stock"). I'm not saying that our cars are better than anyone else’s, but they do fall into an "in between" ground that might need to be addressed here.

Bottom line - your comments sort of reinforce stereotypes that many of the people I talk to in CA (sadly) have about the VCCA, and they don't want to join the club because of all this. Ford V8 clubs have seen the need for these types of cars, and have already created new classes for vehicles that might have dropped axles and pipes, and maybe aluminum heads or period accessories, but are otherwise "1000 point" correct.

Again, if the benefit of the doubt goes to no accessories and cars that are "trying to be stock" by being higher than stock, you will not find this to be a good recruitment attitude for many on the West Coast. Sorry, but that is how many out here feel about it.

When I got my first G & D and there was page after page of worry that numbers are down and the future growth of the club was in jeopardy, this is what got me on this bandwagon, and I am taking a risk here that I represent some unpopular views about all of this. I love what VCCA represents, and the cars in this club are second to none. I frankly don't want to be in clubs where wire wheels and "batteries in the trunk" are the norm, but there is a large contingent of Chevys coming out right now that are lowered and piped, but otherwise diligently restored to "stock" or "as delivered" (did you see my friend's new owner leather pouch that was hung on the door handle?). They would love to find recognition and a home in the VCCA.

Thanks again for your responses, maybe this will, if nothing else, promote further discussion and ideas on recruitment and exciting new judging classes for the club.