VCCA Home Forums GENERAL DISCUSSION General Discussions What's next?

What will GM look like come Monday? Although I have driven many different vehicles, I've always been a true man. Maybe we should buy GM (the shares are just pennies) and produce hydrogen, electric and RETRO cars! :vcca:

It seems likely that Chevrolet and Cadillac are going to be the only brands left. That is the current trend in the industry. Toyota and Lexus, Nissan and Acura, Audi and Volkswagen, etc.

I like the retro comment. Most people identify with a tried and true style that has set it mark over the years.

Electric? I not so sure about that. We would have to depend on burning coal again. Ethanol, propane, or natural gas seems more likely to me. Then again, if we tap our own oil reserves we might be able to tell the Middle East to go take a hike!

I say work on the internal combustion engine unitl you find horsepower and great mpg's. These wiz kids today can make it happen!

This may be happening now, but if Detroit wants to get serious about the auto industry MIT and some of the other outstanding Collages should set up a think-tank engineering camp, and don't come out until they find an internal combustion engine that can get us though the next 40 to 80 years. Talk about retro, it would be sort of like the Manhatten Project of the 1940's.

As of Monday, GM will probably be called "Government Motors"....so at least they still get to keep the "GM" logo.

Mr. Dog, right on again!! Just heard on 9pm news, local station, calling it the Government Motors.

If we could just remove the "greed", what a great place this would be.

In 1973 when first gas crunch hit, Sen Howard Baker came on national news and stated that he had just looked at all the geological maps and that we had enough oil in the United States alone to keep us supplied for another 100 years.

The ol' combustion eng is still a great unit, but would like also to see it powered with natural gas. Ethanol too expensive to produce and lp-propane is by product of refining oil.

Gonna be interesting, to say the least, what happens in the next 5 years.

Jim.

Yep, greed and very bad management was part of the downfall of General Motors (Government Motors) and many other corporations around the country as well. With all of the greed now being promoted by Greedbay (eBay) they could be next.

Ethanol is garbage, and I would like to see that stuff go away completely.

Bankruptcy filed about an hour ago! Done like dinner.

Yep and GM Europe and GM Canada are doing just fine. Doesn't that tell ya something about the way we handle big greedy business here?

Germany sunk some money into Opel and GM of Canada has the parts business so they should be OK.

They say 60 to 90 day turn around until we see the New GM without Pontiac, Saturn and Hummer. Kinda surprised me to see that Buick stayed onboard, but it makes since to fill a middle nich. GMC of course keeps the truck only division. I'm still curious if Chevy will carry only light trucks while GMC handles the heavy ones.

The new guy "Fritz" said today that the Camaro and Malibu is currently Chevy's marketing draw and they are an insight to what is GM's future along with hybrid and electric vehicles.

Like you say, it's going to be an interesting summer!

All I know is at seventy-five cents a share it looks GREAT. Now is the time to buy! Look at GE WOW! BUY NOW

FYI Buick is one of the largest selling cars in China.

Also The big three have been involving all the major engineering universities on projects for grants for many years. When my son was looking at Penn State and Virgina Tech they were both boasting about a huge grant from GM to get 40 MPG on the Surburban, if you look at the new models the rake of the A pillar was reduced. They have been taping into that free think tank for years and they also use it t find the best new prospects. Most of the money problem with GM was with GMAC.
John

Ya, kinda sorta makes you wonder doesn't it? Since the Camaro (and Firebird for that matter) has been and is a marketing draw why did the CEO at the time and his greedy counterparts decide to get rid of the Camaro (and Firebird) in the first place? It was many stupid decisions like this (along with the greed and the egos) that led GM to where it is today.....no where!

They got rid of the line because it was not selling. If they were hitting the projected sales figure they would not have dropped them. The sucess of the retro design of Chrysler and Ford were the reason of bringing the Camaro line back. Lets face it is the Impala really and Impala? It is a small car by the Impala standards we have grown to know.
The Pontiac Solstice is a real cool looking car and if it were a Chevy they would be all over the place. That car was never marketed well at all. Shame on them....
John

Yep, GM discontinued the Camaro because, as they claim, it wasn't selling. That totally could be true, but there were thousands of those things sold up until 2003. Still see tons of them on the road. If the Camaro wasn't selling (or selling up to their expectations), do they really think that the new Camaro is going to outsell the last Camaro....especially the way the economy is today? It's probably too little too late.

The retro design of the Chrysler vehicles might have been the deciding factor in bringing back the Camaro......but.....retro design or not......Chrysler is also bankrupt, so it seems that their retro design didn't help them much. I really hope that the new Camaro is a big success....but we will have to wait and see.....especially since General Motors is now Government Motors and you know how the government runs things.

Yep, I agree.....shame on them.

The problems with General Motors and Chrysler are not so much with the vehicles that they make and sell but the cost to manufacture them. Basically they have ~30% higher cost due to inefficiencies, labor cost, retirement cost, guaranteed pay for those that don't even work and other costs. Essentially GM officials and the UAW negotiated themselves out of business.

The rest of the US is on course to do the same thing unless we all realize that labor is much less outside the USA and that is the true competition.

Great idea, lets just get rid of the middle class.
The labor cost of the car is only between 8-15% of the total cost. If the total labor package were $15 an hour do you think they would lower the price or increase the profit?
The money paid when they are not working comes from a fund that is part of the hourly package, part of that $48 an hour we hear of.
The root of the problem is that maybe doctors get paid too much, if they take a pay cut then medical insurance could drop and that part of the package could come down. But it is better to pick on the blue collar guy.
I am pretty sure the $100 a barrel of oil had an impact and then the market crash tearing up GMAC had much more to do with this problem then a known 6% annual labor increase
John

On my local news tonight along with the announcement that GM has filed bankrupt was the statement that the Australian branch (GMH) is fine and untroubled by the American troubles and thinking of an expansion as a result of the US downsizing.
Tony

Set aside the wages. I believe it is the work rules that runs the cost up. There are so many lines between job descriptions that make it take several different people to do what one well trained person could do. I have experienced it.

Everything said here is true and we all know it! So why wasn't anything done about ahead of time? Oboma Motors will not make it because the core issues and problems have all been retained! GM has not gone into bankruptcy, it was taken over. Unions now run it, Gov,owns it and WE all will pay for it. No expected reboot here!
I have several cars to restore and I am applying for my bailout now! HA...HA.

First it was General Motors. Next it was Generous Motors. And now it is Government Motors.

....and soon it will be Gone Motors.

Gone Motors.....man, that's a good one!

Actually, in between Generous Motors and Government Motors, wasn't it also Greed Motors?

Right again Mr. Dog. The only reason this country is in the shape today that it is, is purly greed!! This starts with the oil companies and spread like a disease. Have seen this happen since early 80's when Reagan introduced the "trickle down theory". Didn't work than and will not work now. Now the corporations and big business are taking advantage of the bad times by closing plants, laying off people whom they think are making too much, than opening plants elsewhere and hiring slave labor, but still charging mucho dinaro. We haven't hit bottom yet and it is not looking good for younger generation.

I wonder if the big boys and government have figured out yet that the poor and rich don't pay taxes and when they have finally stomped the middle class down, who is left to pay the taxes that runs this country. The money that they print won't be worth the paper it's printed on.

Jim.

Don't forget about the greed of the unions.

Oh man...I fell out of my chair this morning after reading the headlines that Hummer has been sold to a construction equipment company in CHINA!!!!!!!!!

That is the ultimate insult to the US auto industry! A Commie country buys us out...no doubt with freshly printed phony money.

Pack your bags boys, it's over. China will eventually own this Country and we will all be planting rice and paying them back with our labor. You need a job to pay your taxes? China will hire you! ...for 3 cents an hour!

Backroads,
The greed of the unions, you mean the people who brought EVERYONE such greedy things as a 40 hour week, overtime, minimum wage, pensions and medical insurance. Do you think if the cost of labor to build a vehicle was $3.00 and hour the price would reflect it? It is the greedy union who built your collector Chevrolets. I have never had a problem with any of my new cars that were related to the people who built it, but rather the people who designed it. It is a lot easier to say the blue collar guy makes too much. How come nobody ever says a doctor makes too much? After all if they were making less then medical insurance might be less, and then the hourly package would be less.......

John
PROUD TO BE A UNION MAN

Excuse me but I don't remember "The Union" building a car. Wasn't it the blue collar worker that built the cars? The Union did those things you said Ok and much more........ I don't have anything to dislike unions for. Collective Bargaining is what got the workers a fair shake, it would have been ok if the rest of the world would all play on the same level field, but no, we allowed the foreign countries to under mine the American Auto companies with cheap labor that produced a better quality automobile, and sold for a decent price, after being transported over half way around the globe. How did they do that?

Didn't the American auto builders deserve some help with import fees and retliation for the Japaneses' poor labor practices and the low standards of living of their labor force?
By the way, maybe we need to realize why Japan was able to be the role model for building good quality low priced autos, instead of the role model that Detroit was not, but should have been, with the highest paid labor force on the planet.

By the way I think Doctors do make more than they should, but I am not the one that sets the amount of fees that a doctor charges, but it isn't quite right to compare the skill and the Doctor's time of learning their trade (7 or 8 years) and their responcibility for a human's life, compared to how long it takes to train a worker to run an air tool screwing in a couple of bolts onto a car the same way for 8 hours a day.
Think about it.

I left a word out, I meant to say built by the same union work force, I hope this clears things up.
John

John 348/340HP, The workers have been and always will be (as long as we survive!)the substance of production. The unions, although beginning as a necessary and important protector of the workers rights, have now (like our Gov.) become a corrupt and greedy element that plagues productivity. Moderation, compromise and concessions from ALL sides would have saved the car comp.from this peril. You simply change with the changing times. If you can't or won't negotiate, you fall. No amount of BAILOUTS or pay offs can save you.

Chevette, Monza, Vega, Citation -- Need I say more. And the aftermarket guys fixed the Corvair, not GM. Seals, suspension kits, and much more...

I'm a union member and know the importance of it when dealing with workers rights and fair wages.

The trouble here is that the unions have priced themselves right out of work.

There is nothing a union can do about the greedy owners who choose to look elsewhere for cheaper labor.

The Auto industry is making the headlines now but businesses have been highering cheap labor for years and no one seems to want to stop it. Matter of fact the government in the past has encouraged it thru NFTA, and the attempted killing of computer software to identify unlawful applicants for jobs.

Here in the Northeast you would be hard pressed to find a gas station attendant or waiter, or grasscutter, or painter, or mechanic, or Burger King worker, or pizza delivery kid, or taxi driver that speaks understandible english. What these people do know is how to work 8 hours for 8hrs of fair wages. Would these people love a job at an assemble plant making 20 bucks an hour with cheapo medical benefits and a 401 contribution? You bet they would! I hope it happens. It just may be the rebirth GM is looking for if they elect to use this workforce.

Couple that workforce with a design/engineering staff that is allowed to be inovative and an administration that actually works for a living might just be the answer.

Times are a changing, the days of greedy unions and greedy owners have priced this great Country out of the manufacturing business.

We need to start over just as GM and Chrysler are doing right now. I just hope they get it right this time.

I do not work in a union nor have I ever worked for one. I am employed by a very large software company. I am paid rather well, but my performance bonus and profit sharing that makes upwards of 25% of my total salary is tied to 1) my personal performance and 2) the companies ability to make a profit. Every one is remunerated this way including managers, directors, vps and so on. We all have to contribute to profitability in order to see the rewards. Slackers are few and far between and are weeded out regularly. We follow the kazillion workplace laws and rules of the land in all geographies. I do have a good health plan, but when I leave, it ends. There is no pension plan, but as a reward for performance I do get stock options, which will grow if we all perform well. This year due to economic times, we will not get a raise, but the company will be profitable and we will be rewarded accordingly. If a product is unprofitable it is phased out immediately, not in 5 years from now after money is lost.

As to my opinion on unions, they did have their place years ago when there were no labour laws and they did a great job pioneering them, but now they should be the custodians, and not play the roles they do negotiating salaries and benefits. Such a model has removed all the drive to be profitable and successful. My wife belongs to a union and there is absolutely no drive to rise above or excel. Salary and benefits are guaranteed as long as you have a pulse. That is just wrong.

Don't blame the workers, unions, engineering, design, production process departments, and management for what has been coming off the assembly line since 1973, blame the good old Federal Govnerment and a couple of State governments for requireing cars to be designed for comes out of the tailpipe rather than what comes out the driveshaft. That is when out domestic Auto industry started down a high grade performance and quality improvement slide. Federal Mandates on Safety, emmissions and economy that didn't work are the big factor in the beginning decline. Greed all along the way also can be blamed.......
Now that we have established the blame. Right or wrong, what in the heck are we gonna do about it? Realize that we are all in the SAME boat in deep water without any bucket to bail with or a rag to pound into the baseball size hole in the bottom?

I don't need some dorky politician to tell me what size personal transport vehicle I should drive based on their narrow vision idea of what we must have. And WEAN us off of petroleum powered transportation, petroleum generated electricity, fertilizer, fabrics,plastic and composite building materials that are all petroleum products? GET REAL!! The scaredy cats scared us off of the safest electric power source in history ....Nuclear power generation. We best start working together...again! Wind is good, when it choses to blow, but...It is vision pollution, and have you been around the center of 400 of those wind generators when the wind is blowing...they put out some steady "noise" (like 500 mice breaking wind!) Support T. Boone Pickens greed habit vote for wind!


:vcca:

Shawng, Custodians? Come on, the Gov.and the Union has now taken over what was once the largest auto maker. They own it, just like that. Is that even ethical?

I have enough old s around here to prove my loyalty, but I doubt if I will ever buy any of what comes out of that cluster *@#% ! Can you imagine?

If they are smart they will produce some RETRO models. But I doubt it.

I still hope for the best!

totally agree, everyone is to blame. I just strongly believe that there is no place for unions any more and they are conducive to demotivation. i work hard and prove myself in order to earn more money. I don't need someone else to negotiate my salary. Anyway, no matter what is said, there will be an opposite view. And in the end, we are all in deep dodo because of the situation. This demise in the auto industry is hurting and affecting us all.

What i meant by the custodian comment is that the unions should get out of the extortion business of strikes and give us what we want or else and be the watchdogs who make sure laws are followed and resolve employee conflicts. Up here in Ottawa this winter we went through a 2 month public transit strike where the union refused to negotiate and held the city hostage.

Shawng, Back when I could still ski, I spent 2 weeks at Mont Tremblont and they were in the middle of a union strike. It was only a miner inconvenience to us,(as we were there to ski) but I was told this goes on all the time in Canada and wasn't so pleasant for the home folks!

So now with the shoe on the other foot, I wonder how it will go at GM when the workers want to strike!

Of coarse they will always have our tax dollars!

My empolyer elects to be a union contractor, because of the quality trained workforce the union provides him. We cost at least twice as much as the non-union electricians, however it is done once and correct, long after the price is paid and long forgotten the quality and will remain with our installation. He can fire a person who does not produce, and he does. He also pays most of us above the union pay scale. My motivation is in my paycheck, because I know it would be a lot less if I were not a union worker. The guy whose wife is not motivated ask her to do that and see if she looks at life a different

Most people who share some of the anti-union feelings as some of you have displayed have had very little contact with unions other than what they have decided to read or whatever they have been fed from some hate radio host. Some of the comments in an attempt to be funny only show a lack of knowledge on the real topic of what is going on. There is nothing wrong with trying to make the most amount of money for the least amount of work, it is human nature. I am sure everyone of you have done the same. My neighbor is an IT guy who just got his job replaced because it was shipped overseas, who wished he had some sort of union support NOW...

I just want all of you to ask yourself if the workers got paid $3.00 an hour do you think GM would charge less for the vehicle?

Now that Chrysler and GM workers have a vested interest in the outcome lets see if they found some more motivation. Labor/Management projects have a history of working well I will see you guys later because I think this is going to go nowhere.
John

As I stated before"you change with changing times"and Unions do not understand that. So they usually wind up going overboard.

As you are correct about pay scale, it is also very demeaning to those who are not union who do their very best at lower pay. I have dealt with union and privet non union labor myself and found quality to be the same but price greatly different. You don't always get what you pay for. Suppose every one were union, there would be no competition, no incentive, and no entrepreneurs.

Dose ANYONE believe unions had a positive effect on the out come of GM? I believe the only thing that will keep GM afloat now will be the never ending flow of our tax dollars!

With that said, I firmly believe that with a REAL clean slate,(NO interference, and a REAL restructuring), GM would once again become the largest and most profitable auto industry! But only as a PRIVET industry will this happen!

Boy these icons are fun!

There were a lot of men who died getting managment to give the working men and women a fair share, such as 40 work week etc. etc. The unions are just as necessary today, perhaps more so than before with corps doing what they do to the workers. One must remember, that if it were not for the unions, you all would be working for 50 cents per hour. It is the union scale that holds up the non-union scale.

The difference in a union job and non-union job may be only a few thousand dollars difference, but when the low bid gets the job, and he pays his people sub standard wages, where do you suppose the difference of union and non-union pay goes?? Right in the pocket of the big boys. It still boiles down to the one word, GREED, with no thought of sharing profits with labor.

Jim Vodraska, proud member for 35 years of the Ironworkers Union Local #67 of Des Moines Ia.

There is a big difference between the Union workers that belong to a local and works for contractors than the Union worker working in a factory.

Jim,(Backroads)
Unlike some who have offered opinion who appear to have no knowledge of what they are talking about I will admit I can not offer fair comment, having never worked in a factory I only know what I know from the eyes of a third generation trade union member. However I do work for a large contractor in NYC that employs over 500 electricians and at one point a few years ago employed over 2000 (think of that payroll!)There are good and bad in every walk of life, someone has to be the best and someone has to be the worst. We all know that 10% of everything is bad, doctors, lawyers, cops, postal workers and yes union workers. I have seen the aspect that treating everyone as equall does create problems. Unions (AFL CIO) have been adressing the productivty issue for the past several years and have been very proactive, they know that our future depends on change. Now that the UAW is part owner we will see how that affects things. I hope, and we all should for the future of this great country that this works. We all must regardless of where we stand politically that this works for the future of our children and grandchildren.
I did my part I bought a new 2009 2500 GMC Sierra last week, made in Flint MI!

John Mahoney
32 Year Proud Member Local Union #3 International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers NYC

Competition is key to attaining and keeping a high level of competence and quality. When the incentive to achieve is reduced then quality and productivity can suffer. Selfishness, laziness, complacency and a multitude of other attitudes are what limit the potential of any organization. As long as these detriments are minimized then the USA will maintain its status in the World. Same for our corporations and businesses and even our people.

I think that we are all essentially striving for the same goals but our different experiences result in our opinions and potential solutions.

John & Chipper

Agree with both of you. My contention being that if people are paid a decent living wage, optimum word, living, the social costs to all of us would be greatly diminished.

You are always going to have the 10 percenters, no argument there, but I feel that the average Joe doesn't necessarily want to own it all, but is more concerned with giving his or her family a head start in this cruel world.

Either union or non-union, it is so sorry to see people struggle to keep up, without thought of themselves just so their family can keep up.

What happens is the fact that if the management, bosses, foreman, et al, all take a week or two off, the grunts down the line will still keep the job or factory running, but if all the grunts take a week or two off, that job or factory will shut down. What needs to happen is that in most cases, what the big boys need to do is appreciate the people and not the amount of money that can be gained.

We, the American people are still the most productive people in the world, with the best attitude and work ethics. These items, I still believe in.

All that I ask for is a chance to show off my
skills and stop sending our jobs elsewhere to make an extra buck or two, and this brings me back to full circle, and that is still the fact that GREED needs to be toned down and pride taken in our workers.

Don't care if you are Democrat or Republican, we need to care about each other and not always that damned dollar.

Thanks.

Jim.

Whats to stop the Gov. from imposing a NON COMPLIANCE fee for anyone who drives a NON GOV. vehicle? Forcing you to buy their product! Quite posibly being the only way for them to sell their cars.

My greatest concern about all of this is that competition in the auto industry will be stamped out. What chance would a new emerging auto industry have in the future against a Gov./union run monopoly!

Although the unions have played an important role in workers rights in the past, they unquestionably contributed heavily to the demise of the auto industry as we know it today. They also walk away with 1/2 of Chrysler and I think 1/3 of GM. HOW DID THAT HAPPEN? What about the investors and debt holders? The ones who put up their dollars in good faith!

I would love to see GM make a full come back but with the current turn of events I see very little hope for success in either car comp.

new endangered species list

:vcca: :vcca:

The news today has Roger Penske making a bid to buy Saturn with a GM conection to remain. Saturn CEO is in favor of the deal to keep Saturn alive.

Anyone have any other news?

I know the judge OK'd Chrysler to dump dealerships, and the Chinese construction oufit is on hold to buy Hummer.

Any news about Pontiac?

In my home town the local Preakness Chevrolet has closed it's doors and all inventory has been moved to the two bigger highway Chevy dealerships. I saw the empty building and lots today. I bought my current Blazer and previous other Chevys there. It's so sad to see the lot empty.

You know, some of these dealerships may be able to keep their doors open by selling used cars, operating the body and /or mechanical shops (if they have them) and selling auto parts. No one knows what will happen in the future, just maybe we could see a gradual return to what once was.
:vcca:

They own it already, most likey their pensions are tied up with company stock. I am surprised you would make a comment like this, I thought that was common knowledge. The sad part is you continue think the labor force is the reason for this, that could not be any further from the truth. There are so many factors. Did you bother read all of the concesions that the unions have made to the agreement to assist with this. If you have not noticed by now nobody has been jumping on your bandwagon.


This was a joke right?

Have a good day
John

Would you like a list of the concessions? Mine came in the mail today?

It's a shame the workers and retirees get most of the criticism from people who know little or nothing about the reason GM is in the condition it is in today.

DD

Yep, it is hard for some to remember all the small items of GM news on the back pagess about the workers doing this, then that and the money they put back into GM trying to save the company and a part of the jobs. They knew as soon as anyone what pain was coming down the tube, but it was worse than expected. The fat cats got a gob of their money moved before the axe fell. I never had enough money to worry about loseing it. Just trying to keep my head above the rising tide......Pain sometimes causes a whole lot of praying, I guess that may be about all the good that comes out of this, maybe it will make us stronger. Amen?

I have worked in the auto industry for about 40 yrs. as an auto body tech and have never been in a union - BUT many yrs ago,while at a dealership, I tried to bring in a union single handedly. I failed to do so but it brought some needed changes to worker/management relations in the way of some well needed benefits. So don't get me wrong about unions, I stated that the unions always WENT TO FAR with frivolous demands. There are some union members in other fields, that laugh at some of the demands made by their own union reps. I know several people retired from GM and they were the first ones that referred to them as "Generous Motors" stating that their "unemployment and retirement benefits" were outrageous and unsustainable,but also added "We will take advantage for as long as we can because we know it wont last forever".

Key word "unsustainable"!

I have very conservative views but DO NOT side with Management on many issues. It's disgusting that BOTH sides could not settle on an even compromise that would have saved the industry from a takeover.

Management is for the most part not very fair or honest(No one knows that better than ME), but neither are the unions. There is no one party to blame for it all, but it seems while fingers do the pointing, Gov. does the taking!

I think that it isn't just management of auto companies and the unions that have a greedy attitude. look at local governments. and the local citizens. Everyone wants more than they can afford. The local governments out here are always strapped for money, local programs and projects look for every way to pay for larger grander material things. The most valuable beaurocrat here in the small towns and the county is the "Grant writers" "We found a grant that will build us a whatever or pay for a new police dog, elaborate fire truck with chrome wheels widgets here and there, a super dupper sewer treatment plant"
After all it is government money and it won't cost us but 10 percent matching funds, there may be a way of us fudgeing a bit and getting this project for free! We may as well have it as someone else." Maybe it would be better if no one took the doles out money, Maybe we should learn to live on what we produce rather than having trillions of dollars of debt. We are selling our soals to the devil (China).

Hey folks, there isn't anything free! Take from Paul to pay Peter or visa versa.

Quote: "unemployment and retirement benefits" were outrageous and unsustainable,but also added "We will take advantage for as long as we can because we know it wont last forever".

When I went to work for GM in 1957 the only unemployment benefits available to laid off workers were from the
state. At that point and time GM was known for their yearly layoffs. Depending on the economy those layoffs could start as early as January. AT $28.00 a week it was hard to buy groceries let alone pay house rent and other bills,so most people got part time jobs or moved on to other jobs. In my area a GM employee was considered a credit risk because of these layoffs.
In the early sixtys the first sub plan was negotated.This was good for the employee and GM.The employee could survive for a few months and GM could still have an experienced work force.In the mid sixtys the "humanization" plan was introduced. This was brought about by new laws enacted by the US Goverment Quota system who told companys who they could and could not hire and fire both male and female.(I will probably be called a racist after that last statement) AT that point quality and absenteeism became a problem.The Union has to represent all employees, good and bad.Ths sub program was and still is a good program.The job bank is a different program. This program was negotated when GM started closing plants. This also accelerated the "buy out" program. I have never understood why GM agreed to this program.
I won't touch on the overpaid executives who are most responsible for GM's down fall.
That is well documented.
I have been in meetings in DETROIT where people had no idea how to build an automobile in the assembley plant. NEXT CHAPTER

How many dealerships have you lost? In our area we have had two to date that have announced that they are being shut down. One Cadillac and one Chrysler dealer. Both of these dealerships have been in business for many years. The Chrysler dealer was planning an expansion. I don't understand how closing a dealership will save money for the company. Can you help me understand this?

dandyd, That was 50 yrs ago. What where the workers collecting in unemployment in the past 10 yrs? I understand it was almost their full wages.

Findoctor,
Again you are wrong in your understanding, it is an insurance policy that they collected from, no different than a medical plan that is bought and paid for by the wages in the negotiated package, it could have been in the envelope, but it was not. Employers like this type of benifit because they do not have to part with the money every week like a earned wage. It allows them to "play" with the money before they have to pay the policy, see where the problem is.... management played with the money and lost it! I do not know where you "hear" this stuff, but please check your facts. I really do not think you understand the situation with some of your comments. The Government loaned GM money, no different than a bank making a loan, but yet you want to believe the Government owns GM, does the bank own a business when a loan is made?
Have a great day
John

John 348/340HP, The quote you referred to "(Whats to stop the Gov. from imposing a NON COMPLIANCE fee for anyone who drives a NON GOV. vehicle? Forcing you to buy their product! Quite possibly being the only way for them to sell their cars)" was tong and cheek but you have to look at what is being considered by our Gov. now and in the future. GPS in all new cars? If the Gov. decides to build only electric and hybrid autos and feel YOU should drive it, they may charge(on the car you are driving)1-higher reg. fees, 2-tax on non hybrid/elec auto, 3-age fee (older the car,higher the fee). I believe they do have something like this Overseas. Plan is to get you to by a new car when the Gov. decides you should!

They came from retired GM employees. And is not how they explained it to me. I don't work for GM so no I don't know any of this to be true for sure, as I am told this in conversations by the ones who have worked for them, but some yrs ago. If what you say is true either they were just bashing their former employer or some changes have taken place since then. In any case, they don't seem to worried about it even now.?

I'm 57 and I don't know when or even if I can retire!

John, I just heard on TV in a congressional hearing that the government owns 60% of General Motors.

Back Roads,

I'm in the NYC Metro area and there were tons of dealerships all around me. Over the last month or so at least a third of them have closed or are planning to close. allmost all of the Pontiac dealers are gone, except the ones that carry other brands.

The Chrysler Dealers are still trying to sell off what's left but most look like ghost town buildings.

Most small town Chevy Dealers have closed the doors and the only ones doing business are the big highway locations and one or two very high volume dealers that have bought up smaller dealers inventory.

To give you a count for my area is hard, but I'd say about one third are gone. Some dealers are hanging on because they carried an import.

Sad to think of all those talented mechanics and clerical workers along with salesmen and the business owners being all out of work. A lot of those businesses were started by the grandparents of the current owners. Our local paper runs articles ever other day about an owner closing after 50 or 65 years!

BUY AMERICAN!!!! If you can find something made in America!

Jim,
The Government would then own 60% of the stock........ I did not hear that. I think someone in an effort to simplify things condensed the facts. I have been following this very closely and never read anything that they were a 60% owner.
We lost a few dealers on this side of the city, but much of that is due to poor business. I just bought an 09 Sierra last week and that dealer who also happens to be my friend and fellow VCCA member who shed a lot of light on the subject. He was not concerned about his future. I did see a huge Chevrolet Dealership close last week, they were a GM owned dealership, so I think they will be closing many of those company owned stores.
John

Nothing for nothing, but........ who's fault is that. IRA's were around for at least the past 25 years. No need to be mad at others because they have.
Have a good day
John

I also heard on the news that the government owns 60% of General Motors. Not saying it is true, but that is what the national news on several networks did report.

Also, I read a news article this afternoon that in the year 2008, in the United States, 881 retail automobile dealerships closed, which is an all-time record.

The forth largest dealership in the world has its main headquarters locally and it has not closed any dealerships in this area even though several of their dealerships are Chrysler and Dodge. In fact, what I was told several weeks ago by one of the higher-ups in the company who is a friend of mine, is that the dealership made a trade in which it lost three Chrysler dealerships but gained five more dealerships...for a net gain of two dealerships.

None of the other dealerships within the county have closed at this point either and there has been no talk of any of them closing.

There are too many US make car dealers for any of them to stay alive. In this area there are only four Toyota dealers and nine Chevrolet dealers. Same for Honda. Also small towns never had Toyota and Honda dealers.
A few years back GM made a push to combine Pontiac, Buick and GMC dealers. We lost some of each at that time. The dealer I call on has the three. Five years ago, when they sold Pontiacs only, they sold more Pontiacs alone than they sell the three combined today.
GM killed both Pontiac and Buick when the dropped the Grand Prix, Grand AM, Buick Century and Buick LaSaber names.

Findoctor. The govt does not own GM!! The govt has loaned GM the money (taxpayers) as a bank loans me money for my business. Bank does not own me or my business!! President Obama came on TV and flatly stated that the govt will not, I repeat will not be in any position to run GM or make any decisions as to GM. This is to be done by the newly appointed management of GM
and there will only be interference from govt in certain
decisions.
This is still a free market society and I cannot forsee at any time other than another world war where govt will be telling private citizens what, when, where, and how to buy any product.

This is a very interesting and thought provoking post gentlemen, keep it up. Am enjoying it.

Have a great day!! Jim.

Gene, I understand what you are saying but I do not understand why it is not the decision of the dealer if they can make it or not. I don't understand big daddy telling them they need to close.

Let me be more clear. What ever I had is nearly gone, and I am NOT alone. I am NOT blaming anyone I am just stating the fact that some pensions have been selectively guaranteed. Mine is not! Although certain retirements will be backed by our tax dollars.

My anger is not at those who still have a pension, but at those who should have but did not address the issue for yrs of abuse. I sat powerless and watched everything slowly shrink away to almost nothing.

I am not afraid of work and have worked 2 jobs when needed, and will continue to do so, but it is a dangerous situation when you have one who has lost what they worked and saved for and one who walks with the spoils.

Again I am NOT blaming any one party. Management, Unions, and Bureaucrats alike are responsible and for some reason NEVER get held accountable!

The WORK force (and I don't mean unions) are, have and will always be the ONLY THING that stands between total collapse and survival!

And it is every bit a take over NOT a loan! I want to see every bit of the $40. bil? or what ever it is now, payed back. But I will not live long enough to see it.

And every day is a great day !

That's interesting John, I didn't know there were GM owned dealerships. That may be why Preakness Chevy moved out so fast and Hawthorn Chevy now has most of it's inventory. Hawthorn ran an ad in yesterday's paper inviting all former Preakness customers. Hawthorn is still a local main street location but has a very huge volume. (Remember "Cousin Brucie" Marrow from CBS FM? He did their voice overs for years)

findoctr you are not alone. I have yet to retire and collect my public supported pension. (I'm 59) I hope the State of NJ doesn't mess with that! Pivately, all the interest I made in the past 8 yrs with my 404b and 401k is gone! I am currently just about even with what I personaly put into them and can only hope that they improve ever so slowely since I changed them to interest only accounts.

Todays news says some of the bigger banks are getting ready to pay back part of the TARP funding. I sure hope GM and Chrysler are able to do the same.

I read today that Fiat is very concerned that Chrysler customers will not buy the fiat products. They are hoping that the US will not remember the Fiat of the 70s and 80s when Americans thought Fiat ment "fix it again Tony". (that's a newspaper quote, not mine)
The paper also said that Chryler/dodge dealers will not receive any Fiat cars until early 2010!

I fear for these Dealers and the people that work for them.

JDV123:

I hope your response was tongue-in-cheek. If not, you are incorrect that after the bankruptcy the government will not own most of GM. As it now stands, after the bankruptcy, the current stockholders of GM will have stock of no value. GM stock has already been delisted from the NYSE and currently trades on the pink sheet market as GMGMQ.

As it now stands the US gov will own approx 60% of GM common stock which will probably go to 70% if they "loan" them more money. The UAW will receive 20% of Common stock and $6.5 billion in preferred stock. Even the Canadian government will receive some of the GM common stock. The bondholders and other debtors will receive the rest. Now this could all change as bondholders who are getting the shaft and will go to the courts to get their fair share of new GM stock.

GM is simply going to become a way to transfer taxpayer money to the UAW via the preferred stock to fund their medical and pension liabilities.

I would not put too much truck in Obama's words about not wanting to run the company as he and his administration are already running it. Ask Rick Wagner.

Dr David,

THANK YOU!!!!

findoctr

What I wrote above has goten plenty of media coverage. It is no secret. It may not happen as reported but the early reports on what would happen to Chy proved to be true.

What is unusual is that the bondholders and other debt holders had superior leins to those of the UAW, yet the UAW is getting a higher percentage-per-dollar invested of new stock.

As to the future, I cannot imagine any of the 10's of millions of GM stock and bondholders who are getting the shaft buyng GM cars. But, I may be wrong.

RGwiz,
It makes no sence, If the Gov. is so worried about high unemployment why then is it so important for a "speedy" closing of all these dealerships? Let them linger for as long as they can, making every last dollar that they can. For the sake of employment and the economy.

Dr David,
It is my absolute belief that this is all political.

The new Italian owners of Chrysler may not want to have all of these dealerships involved in their plans, and that probably was a condition of them buying the auto maker, reckon maybe?

It is not clear exactly what the reason for closure is but I'm pretty shure it may have to do with copyright and trademark infringement on the Chrysler name.

And I wouldn't call 20% Fiat share an ownership, But A 55% UNION share is absolutely an ownership!!!!

http://www.industrialinfo.com/showAbstract.jsp?newsitemID=147612

And I always have a great day,especially Friday!

Would this fall into the frivolous or the ridiculous category? You decide!

http://www.scrappleface.com/?p=3388

One factor that none of you are considering is the cost to Chrysler or GM to service a dealer. It takes more accounting, service, sales, warranty, etc. people to deal with the dealers that are being eliminated. These costs must be weighed against the probable additional sales to determine if the cost is justified.

The fewer number of dealers will also help the remaining dealer to be profitable.
I think fewer dealers is a good move from a business standpoint.

As I understand from a current Chevrolet dealer the criteria used to decide which dealers would not be supported was multifaceted. One was the monthly new car sale volume. Another was customer satisfaction rating. There were several more. Keeping the best dealers and the ones that would be positive contributions to future business was the logical business strategy. Without profit there is no long term future for a business. Chrysler and GM just proved that. Even not-for-profit organizations (like the VCCA) need funds equaling or exceeding their expenses to remain viable.

A friend of mine who is a GMC dealer and fellow VCCA member, said that the closing of the other GMC dealerships in the area allowed him to hire their best technicians, thus laying off some of his not so good technicians. These purges were needed. He felt from a business standpoint it will work out in the long run, also now there will be less competition, so the surviving ones will not have to be as negotiable.
The automobile is the only product that I know of that everyone knows the actual price and mark-up. Nobody knows how much the TV set cost to manufacture or the profit mark-up. The dealers brought this upon themselves.
Have a good weekend
John

From a stand point of the consumer, autos are to expensive. What I hear from the costumers at the shop is that cars should be made less expensive. Like in the old days the difference between a "cheapy" and top of the line was basically Chrome and more appointments and only a few platforms to chose from.

I am well aware that the technology of todays autos can not even be compared to the old ones, but tech. always gets cheaper in time. My first computer,(an IBM stone age XT) coast I think about $1800., 1st Pent. machine (1995) $1700., Pent.4 /dvd, 1gig ram about $500.and a Dual Core Vi$ta laptop for school $429.

I have gathered that some of you guys work/worked at GM and know the coast of assembly, but I myself still can not see justification for the price of some of these cars.

My job involves cutting apart and reconstructing(sometimes from the ground up), wrecks of all makes and models and I have to say I am NOT very impressed with much of what I see. The more expensive, the worse it seems. Although technology like energy absorbing crush zones, anti lock brk.,SRS. and the electronic engineering are rather advanced, it has already been developed to the point that it is standard equipment. Cars should get a little cheaper in time, not more expensive.

$60,000. for a set of wheels??!

A price range of about $7,000. to maybe $25,000/$30,000.(and that is not impossible), would bring back the long gone days of "trade em in every 2 yrs". As some would be more inclined to buy new rather than maintain.

Resulting in a large increase in sales.