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Excuse me but I don't remember "The Union" building a car. Wasn't it the blue collar worker that built the cars? The Union did those things you said Ok and much more........ I don't have anything to dislike unions for. Collective Bargaining is what got the workers a fair shake, it would have been ok if the rest of the world would all play on the same level field, but no, we allowed the foreign countries to under mine the American Auto companies with cheap labor that produced a better quality automobile, and sold for a decent price, after being transported over half way around the globe. How did they do that?

Didn't the American auto builders deserve some help with import fees and retliation for the Japaneses' poor labor practices and the low standards of living of their labor force?
By the way, maybe we need to realize why Japan was able to be the role model for building good quality low priced autos, instead of the role model that Detroit was not, but should have been, with the highest paid labor force on the planet.

By the way I think Doctors do make more than they should, but I am not the one that sets the amount of fees that a doctor charges, but it isn't quite right to compare the skill and the Doctor's time of learning their trade (7 or 8 years) and their responcibility for a human's life, compared to how long it takes to train a worker to run an air tool screwing in a couple of bolts onto a car the same way for 8 hours a day.
Think about it.

I left a word out, I meant to say built by the same union work force, I hope this clears things up.
John

John 348/340HP, The workers have been and always will be (as long as we survive!)the substance of production. The unions, although beginning as a necessary and important protector of the workers rights, have now (like our Gov.) become a corrupt and greedy element that plagues productivity. Moderation, compromise and concessions from ALL sides would have saved the car comp.from this peril. You simply change with the changing times. If you can't or won't negotiate, you fall. No amount of BAILOUTS or pay offs can save you.

Chevette, Monza, Vega, Citation -- Need I say more. And the aftermarket guys fixed the Corvair, not GM. Seals, suspension kits, and much more...

I'm a union member and know the importance of it when dealing with workers rights and fair wages.

The trouble here is that the unions have priced themselves right out of work.

There is nothing a union can do about the greedy owners who choose to look elsewhere for cheaper labor.

The Auto industry is making the headlines now but businesses have been highering cheap labor for years and no one seems to want to stop it. Matter of fact the government in the past has encouraged it thru NFTA, and the attempted killing of computer software to identify unlawful applicants for jobs.

Here in the Northeast you would be hard pressed to find a gas station attendant or waiter, or grasscutter, or painter, or mechanic, or Burger King worker, or pizza delivery kid, or taxi driver that speaks understandible english. What these people do know is how to work 8 hours for 8hrs of fair wages. Would these people love a job at an assemble plant making 20 bucks an hour with cheapo medical benefits and a 401 contribution? You bet they would! I hope it happens. It just may be the rebirth GM is looking for if they elect to use this workforce.

Couple that workforce with a design/engineering staff that is allowed to be inovative and an administration that actually works for a living might just be the answer.

Times are a changing, the days of greedy unions and greedy owners have priced this great Country out of the manufacturing business.

We need to start over just as GM and Chrysler are doing right now. I just hope they get it right this time.

I do not work in a union nor have I ever worked for one. I am employed by a very large software company. I am paid rather well, but my performance bonus and profit sharing that makes upwards of 25% of my total salary is tied to 1) my personal performance and 2) the companies ability to make a profit. Every one is remunerated this way including managers, directors, vps and so on. We all have to contribute to profitability in order to see the rewards. Slackers are few and far between and are weeded out regularly. We follow the kazillion workplace laws and rules of the land in all geographies. I do have a good health plan, but when I leave, it ends. There is no pension plan, but as a reward for performance I do get stock options, which will grow if we all perform well. This year due to economic times, we will not get a raise, but the company will be profitable and we will be rewarded accordingly. If a product is unprofitable it is phased out immediately, not in 5 years from now after money is lost.

As to my opinion on unions, they did have their place years ago when there were no labour laws and they did a great job pioneering them, but now they should be the custodians, and not play the roles they do negotiating salaries and benefits. Such a model has removed all the drive to be profitable and successful. My wife belongs to a union and there is absolutely no drive to rise above or excel. Salary and benefits are guaranteed as long as you have a pulse. That is just wrong.

Don't blame the workers, unions, engineering, design, production process departments, and management for what has been coming off the assembly line since 1973, blame the good old Federal Govnerment and a couple of State governments for requireing cars to be designed for comes out of the tailpipe rather than what comes out the driveshaft. That is when out domestic Auto industry started down a high grade performance and quality improvement slide. Federal Mandates on Safety, emmissions and economy that didn't work are the big factor in the beginning decline. Greed all along the way also can be blamed.......
Now that we have established the blame. Right or wrong, what in the heck are we gonna do about it? Realize that we are all in the SAME boat in deep water without any bucket to bail with or a rag to pound into the baseball size hole in the bottom?

I don't need some dorky politician to tell me what size personal transport vehicle I should drive based on their narrow vision idea of what we must have. And WEAN us off of petroleum powered transportation, petroleum generated electricity, fertilizer, fabrics,plastic and composite building materials that are all petroleum products? GET REAL!! The scaredy cats scared us off of the safest electric power source in history ....Nuclear power generation. We best start working together...again! Wind is good, when it choses to blow, but...It is vision pollution, and have you been around the center of 400 of those wind generators when the wind is blowing...they put out some steady "noise" (like 500 mice breaking wind!) Support T. Boone Pickens greed habit vote for wind!


:vcca:

Shawng, Custodians? Come on, the Gov.and the Union has now taken over what was once the largest auto maker. They own it, just like that. Is that even ethical?

I have enough old s around here to prove my loyalty, but I doubt if I will ever buy any of what comes out of that cluster *@#% ! Can you imagine?

If they are smart they will produce some RETRO models. But I doubt it.

I still hope for the best!

totally agree, everyone is to blame. I just strongly believe that there is no place for unions any more and they are conducive to demotivation. i work hard and prove myself in order to earn more money. I don't need someone else to negotiate my salary. Anyway, no matter what is said, there will be an opposite view. And in the end, we are all in deep dodo because of the situation. This demise in the auto industry is hurting and affecting us all.

What i meant by the custodian comment is that the unions should get out of the extortion business of strikes and give us what we want or else and be the watchdogs who make sure laws are followed and resolve employee conflicts. Up here in Ottawa this winter we went through a 2 month public transit strike where the union refused to negotiate and held the city hostage.

Shawng, Back when I could still ski, I spent 2 weeks at Mont Tremblont and they were in the middle of a union strike. It was only a miner inconvenience to us,(as we were there to ski) but I was told this goes on all the time in Canada and wasn't so pleasant for the home folks!

So now with the shoe on the other foot, I wonder how it will go at GM when the workers want to strike!

Of coarse they will always have our tax dollars!

My empolyer elects to be a union contractor, because of the quality trained workforce the union provides him. We cost at least twice as much as the non-union electricians, however it is done once and correct, long after the price is paid and long forgotten the quality and will remain with our installation. He can fire a person who does not produce, and he does. He also pays most of us above the union pay scale. My motivation is in my paycheck, because I know it would be a lot less if I were not a union worker. The guy whose wife is not motivated ask her to do that and see if she looks at life a different

Most people who share some of the anti-union feelings as some of you have displayed have had very little contact with unions other than what they have decided to read or whatever they have been fed from some hate radio host. Some of the comments in an attempt to be funny only show a lack of knowledge on the real topic of what is going on. There is nothing wrong with trying to make the most amount of money for the least amount of work, it is human nature. I am sure everyone of you have done the same. My neighbor is an IT guy who just got his job replaced because it was shipped overseas, who wished he had some sort of union support NOW...

I just want all of you to ask yourself if the workers got paid $3.00 an hour do you think GM would charge less for the vehicle?

Now that Chrysler and GM workers have a vested interest in the outcome lets see if they found some more motivation. Labor/Management projects have a history of working well I will see you guys later because I think this is going to go nowhere.
John

As I stated before"you change with changing times"and Unions do not understand that. So they usually wind up going overboard.

As you are correct about pay scale, it is also very demeaning to those who are not union who do their very best at lower pay. I have dealt with union and privet non union labor myself and found quality to be the same but price greatly different. You don't always get what you pay for. Suppose every one were union, there would be no competition, no incentive, and no entrepreneurs.

Dose ANYONE believe unions had a positive effect on the out come of GM? I believe the only thing that will keep GM afloat now will be the never ending flow of our tax dollars!

With that said, I firmly believe that with a REAL clean slate,(NO interference, and a REAL restructuring), GM would once again become the largest and most profitable auto industry! But only as a PRIVET industry will this happen!

Boy these icons are fun!

There were a lot of men who died getting managment to give the working men and women a fair share, such as 40 work week etc. etc. The unions are just as necessary today, perhaps more so than before with corps doing what they do to the workers. One must remember, that if it were not for the unions, you all would be working for 50 cents per hour. It is the union scale that holds up the non-union scale.

The difference in a union job and non-union job may be only a few thousand dollars difference, but when the low bid gets the job, and he pays his people sub standard wages, where do you suppose the difference of union and non-union pay goes?? Right in the pocket of the big boys. It still boiles down to the one word, GREED, with no thought of sharing profits with labor.

Jim Vodraska, proud member for 35 years of the Ironworkers Union Local #67 of Des Moines Ia.

There is a big difference between the Union workers that belong to a local and works for contractors than the Union worker working in a factory.

Jim,(Backroads)
Unlike some who have offered opinion who appear to have no knowledge of what they are talking about I will admit I can not offer fair comment, having never worked in a factory I only know what I know from the eyes of a third generation trade union member. However I do work for a large contractor in NYC that employs over 500 electricians and at one point a few years ago employed over 2000 (think of that payroll!)There are good and bad in every walk of life, someone has to be the best and someone has to be the worst. We all know that 10% of everything is bad, doctors, lawyers, cops, postal workers and yes union workers. I have seen the aspect that treating everyone as equall does create problems. Unions (AFL CIO) have been adressing the productivty issue for the past several years and have been very proactive, they know that our future depends on change. Now that the UAW is part owner we will see how that affects things. I hope, and we all should for the future of this great country that this works. We all must regardless of where we stand politically that this works for the future of our children and grandchildren.
I did my part I bought a new 2009 2500 GMC Sierra last week, made in Flint MI!

John Mahoney
32 Year Proud Member Local Union #3 International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers NYC

Competition is key to attaining and keeping a high level of competence and quality. When the incentive to achieve is reduced then quality and productivity can suffer. Selfishness, laziness, complacency and a multitude of other attitudes are what limit the potential of any organization. As long as these detriments are minimized then the USA will maintain its status in the World. Same for our corporations and businesses and even our people.

I think that we are all essentially striving for the same goals but our different experiences result in our opinions and potential solutions.

John & Chipper

Agree with both of you. My contention being that if people are paid a decent living wage, optimum word, living, the social costs to all of us would be greatly diminished.

You are always going to have the 10 percenters, no argument there, but I feel that the average Joe doesn't necessarily want to own it all, but is more concerned with giving his or her family a head start in this cruel world.

Either union or non-union, it is so sorry to see people struggle to keep up, without thought of themselves just so their family can keep up.

What happens is the fact that if the management, bosses, foreman, et al, all take a week or two off, the grunts down the line will still keep the job or factory running, but if all the grunts take a week or two off, that job or factory will shut down. What needs to happen is that in most cases, what the big boys need to do is appreciate the people and not the amount of money that can be gained.

We, the American people are still the most productive people in the world, with the best attitude and work ethics. These items, I still believe in.

All that I ask for is a chance to show off my
skills and stop sending our jobs elsewhere to make an extra buck or two, and this brings me back to full circle, and that is still the fact that GREED needs to be toned down and pride taken in our workers.

Don't care if you are Democrat or Republican, we need to care about each other and not always that damned dollar.

Thanks.

Jim.

Whats to stop the Gov. from imposing a NON COMPLIANCE fee for anyone who drives a NON GOV. vehicle? Forcing you to buy their product! Quite posibly being the only way for them to sell their cars.

My greatest concern about all of this is that competition in the auto industry will be stamped out. What chance would a new emerging auto industry have in the future against a Gov./union run monopoly!

Although the unions have played an important role in workers rights in the past, they unquestionably contributed heavily to the demise of the auto industry as we know it today. They also walk away with 1/2 of Chrysler and I think 1/3 of GM. HOW DID THAT HAPPEN? What about the investors and debt holders? The ones who put up their dollars in good faith!

I would love to see GM make a full come back but with the current turn of events I see very little hope for success in either car comp.

new endangered species list

:vcca: :vcca:

The news today has Roger Penske making a bid to buy Saturn with a GM conection to remain. Saturn CEO is in favor of the deal to keep Saturn alive.

Anyone have any other news?

I know the judge OK'd Chrysler to dump dealerships, and the Chinese construction oufit is on hold to buy Hummer.

Any news about Pontiac?

In my home town the local Preakness Chevrolet has closed it's doors and all inventory has been moved to the two bigger highway Chevy dealerships. I saw the empty building and lots today. I bought my current Blazer and previous other Chevys there. It's so sad to see the lot empty.

You know, some of these dealerships may be able to keep their doors open by selling used cars, operating the body and /or mechanical shops (if they have them) and selling auto parts. No one knows what will happen in the future, just maybe we could see a gradual return to what once was.
:vcca:

They own it already, most likey their pensions are tied up with company stock. I am surprised you would make a comment like this, I thought that was common knowledge. The sad part is you continue think the labor force is the reason for this, that could not be any further from the truth. There are so many factors. Did you bother read all of the concesions that the unions have made to the agreement to assist with this. If you have not noticed by now nobody has been jumping on your bandwagon.


This was a joke right?

Have a good day
John

Would you like a list of the concessions? Mine came in the mail today?

It's a shame the workers and retirees get most of the criticism from people who know little or nothing about the reason GM is in the condition it is in today.

DD

Yep, it is hard for some to remember all the small items of GM news on the back pagess about the workers doing this, then that and the money they put back into GM trying to save the company and a part of the jobs. They knew as soon as anyone what pain was coming down the tube, but it was worse than expected. The fat cats got a gob of their money moved before the axe fell. I never had enough money to worry about loseing it. Just trying to keep my head above the rising tide......Pain sometimes causes a whole lot of praying, I guess that may be about all the good that comes out of this, maybe it will make us stronger. Amen?

I have worked in the auto industry for about 40 yrs. as an auto body tech and have never been in a union - BUT many yrs ago,while at a dealership, I tried to bring in a union single handedly. I failed to do so but it brought some needed changes to worker/management relations in the way of some well needed benefits. So don't get me wrong about unions, I stated that the unions always WENT TO FAR with frivolous demands. There are some union members in other fields, that laugh at some of the demands made by their own union reps. I know several people retired from GM and they were the first ones that referred to them as "Generous Motors" stating that their "unemployment and retirement benefits" were outrageous and unsustainable,but also added "We will take advantage for as long as we can because we know it wont last forever".

Key word "unsustainable"!

I have very conservative views but DO NOT side with Management on many issues. It's disgusting that BOTH sides could not settle on an even compromise that would have saved the industry from a takeover.

Management is for the most part not very fair or honest(No one knows that better than ME), but neither are the unions. There is no one party to blame for it all, but it seems while fingers do the pointing, Gov. does the taking!