VCCA Home Forums TECHNICAL - GENERAL Electrical - 6 volt 1950 Won't Start

Tried to get my 1950 started today without any success. It has not run for about 10 years. Can't seem to get any spark thru the distributor. Tried a second coil with no luck. I am going to pick up a new coil tommorrow and try that. The condensor is new and the points seem fine. The ignition key has three positions and the sparking happens only in the middle position which I thought was the off position. I found this out when the cap was off and I was checking the points. My screwdriver touched the inside of the distributor and a little sparking happened. Any thoughts?

The middle key position is on. Turning it to the right shuts the car off, put you can turn it back on without the key. Turning it to the left also shuts the car off, but you need the key to turn it back on.

Is the car getting gas OK?

It may help if you advise what was done prior to trying to start, such as gas tank? fuel pump? carb? dist. cap? rotor? plugs?

The fuel pump was replaced about ten years ago and I have a line from the fuel pump in a can of fresh gas. I don't think fuel is the issue. I really think it is ignition. The rotor, cap, condensor and wires are new. Plugs are newer and gapped correctly. When I take the coil wire off and ground it to the block, I get no spark. Like I said earlier, I am picking up a new coil tommorrow and will try that. Is there a bench test for a coil?

Do not try to start the car if the gas in the tank has also been sitting for 10 years.

Check the wiring between the key and the coil by running a jump wire straight from the battery to the in on the coil. It also will tell you if your ignition switch is shot.

As long as you are that close I would replace the points.....the contacts can get a film on them after sitting that long.

Do you get a spark when closing the points? Do you get a stronger spark when shorting across the open points with a screwdriver? If so then the points are a problem. If there is no spark then check the ignition switch or wire from the switch to coil. Is the case of the condenser grounded? If not then you will get a very weak spark at best. Coils can go bad but generally they are not the problem. Points and condensers are by far more often the problem.

I would get a point file and clean the point contacts. I've found when they sit they need to be cleaned up. I would also pull the valve cover and squirt the valve stems with some marvel mystery oil and also remove spark plugs and oil the cylinders good. Then turn the motor my hand, watch the valves and make sure they are all going up and down. Also make sure you follow others regarding old gas, it can kill an engine right quick.
Good Luck
Don

Good advice.

I assume you mean "turn the motor (engine) by hand" by means other than grabbing the fan blades.

Charlie

Good lord...Like JG says, don't start the car with the old tank in place...Remove it and look inside...Even it was empty you have to remove any brown residue...Or else the varnish will desolve in to the fresh fuel...If the tank is in good shape I use acetone to rinse out the old varnish...The coil could be the problem...But I wouldn't put money on it...if it was the coil, why would you have any spark...? Think about it...I have a feeling the points aren't opening...

10 years is a long time...I would change the oil, also...A little late, too, if you didn't remove all the plugs and add a teaspoon of oil to each cylinder, wait over-nite and then rotate the motor...Must have a good battery if your already trying to start it...Check your fan belt,too...That old, it can fly apart some time soon...Leaving you stranded or worse, I had one fly apart and nearly hit me in the face...Would have been a big improvement ...Check your valve stems on the tires,too. For cracks around the rim holes...Leaving cars "idle" for ten or more years bring on a "host" of problems...Take your time... don't rush it...

Let's Recap. Step 1 = get spark. Step 2 = gas. Let's forget about gas - the line is disconnected between tank and fuel pump.
Today I installed a new coil, points, condensor, rotor and cap. The spark plug wires check out fine. I do not know how to test the wires on the (+) side of the coil and the (-) side of the coil. Brewster suggested running a jumper wire from the (+) side of the battery to the (+) side of the coil to test the ignition switch. I have not done this then. What guage wire is good for this test? If I put this jumper between the battery and coil, do I turn the motor over and check for spark? If it does show a spark, I guess that means the ignition switch is toast. Correct? If and when I get this thing started, THEN I will go over the other things like oil, filter, tires and brakes, etc.

Do what Brewster suggested. You will be hot wiring the ignition. This will eleminate the ign. switch and the small wire (which could be the problem) that runs from the coil to the distributor. Also check the big wire that goes from the coil to the cap.
Regular 16 gauge wire can be used for the jumper. If it does start you will not be able to shut the engine off unless you kill it with letting the clutch out of disconnecting the wire.

Chevgene,
Thanks. I'll try that tommorow.

Fourteen gauge wire will be fine. Running a wire from the battery to the coil simply bypasses the ignition switch. If it does start doing so you will have to remove the wire to shut the engine down. I would pull the wire from the center of the dist cap so the engine does not start, and crank the engine with the wire held close to a ground to check for spark. Changing the oil and filter before starting is highly recommended. After sitting for so long what ever crud has accumulated in the oil will be resting on the bottom of the pan. Starting (and cranking) will allow the oil pump to pick up the crud and disperse it thru out your engine.

You can check most of the ignition system before trying to start the engine. Connect positive post on battery to positive post on coil. Or you can turn on the ignition switch then remove the wire from the positive post of the coil. Quickly pass the terminal end of the wire past a ground to see if you get a spark. Or if you have a VOM or test light you can test the positive post on the coil with everything attached and a piece of paper between the points. You should get battery voltage or light the test light if the wire, ignition switch and battery are good. If no spark or voltage then check the switch, wires or battery. Once you have power to the positive post on the coil then you can test other components.

With the paper between points (or points open) you should have battery voltage on both coil posts and to the hot side of the points. If not check wires and terminal ends.

Once you have voltage to the points short across the points with a screwdriver. You should see and hear a spark. With spark at points, hold the end of the center coil wire approx. 1/2" from ground and short across the points. You should get a spark from the end of the wire to ground that makes a "Snap". If not check the condenser to see if it is attached to the negative post on the coil or wire to the points on the distributor and the case is grounded. If no spark or weak spark replace the condenser. Once you have a strong "snappy" spark from the coil center wire, test the points. Remove the paper from the points and open and close them by hand. If you get the same strength spark as shorting across them they are good. If a weaker spark, clean or replace the points. Once you have a good strong spark from the center wire operating the points, put on the rotor, distributor cap and center coil wire to the distributor cap. You are ready to start the car.

As you can see it does not take a second person to test and diagnose the ignition system with a set of points. Don't have to turn over the engine either.

If there is a problem with the engine starting or you have any doubts that spark is getting to the plugs it may take a person to hit the starter while another person holds a spark plug wire 1/2" from a ground. It can be done by a single person on a '29 to mid-30s Chevy by activating the starter switch with the left hand and holding the wire with the right. If your left hand is weak it also can be done by switching your hands.

After checking my work three times and getting a second set of eyes to look at my work, the %@*%&$ thing sparked. Poured a little gas down the carb and it turned over. Now I have to figure out why the fuel pump is not getting gas to the carb. The fuel pump was put on 10 years ago and has maybe 50 miles on it, but it's not doing the job. Will most likely have it rebuilt.
THANKS to everyone who gave me advise. This car was about 10 minutes away from becoming a new toaster and you guys saved it!

Guess the garage gremlins finally sensed you were about to go over the edge and ended their prank. We all know those guys (and gals?) exist. They hide tools, move parts, keep things from working, etc. Once they have had their "fun" they put the tools back, replace parts and let things work. Sometimes is is minutes but others days, months or years.

For you psychic folks and the medical community I don't necessarily believe your explanations. The theory that "your eyes see everything but you only recognize what your brain is prepared for" is as much bunk as my gremlins IMHO.

A second set of "eyes" is usually good to see things you might have missed...If you have a fuel pump pressure gauge that could come in handy...If the tank is still in place disconnect the carburator line and see if pours out in to a can or whatever ( I usually use the driveway )...Should pump a stream right away...Or it's NG...Fuel pumps are inexpensive so I don't bother to rebuild...Unless you must have the old glass bowl type for looks...Old "unleaded" gas may have done it in...

After sitting for ten years the same crud that resides in the gas tank most likely is also in the lines and the pump. All will need to be cleaned.

I went to my local NAPA store and ordered a new fuel pump on Monday and on Tuesday morning I picked it up. Installed it, added a little gas to the carb and it not only started BUT it kept on running after only one try. Attached is a photo of the old one I bought 10 years ago and the new one. The old one has the glass bowl on top and the new one does not. They both have the same part number M751 but the one w/o the glass bowl is the new version. Since I have an inline filter, the version works well. So, consider NAPA for some parts. I got one day service. Did not have to take it if it was not correct. There was no shipping charges. Tax, title, out the door was $37.71. If I remember correctly, this pump will fit 1937 - 1951.

I think that the reason for the pump fitting 216 & 235 engines up thru 1951 is because from 1952 up to 54 the engine side motor mounts required the fuel inlet and outlet fittings to be relocated. I used one for an earlier model on my 53 by using some 45 degree ells on the older pump and it worked fine.

Your old one still looks good and probably just needs a new diaphragm. Sitting for a long time can dry rot it. Pretty sure the rebuild kit is still available.

The all metal pump was used from 1955-1962. Will fit all engines from 1937-1962. Other than not looking correct and no glass bowl to allow seeing what the filter stopped there is no problem. In 1955 the new metal pump increased pressure about a pound to help prevent vapor lock (according to Chevrolet)