VCCA Home Forums TECHNICAL - 1945 AND EARLIER 1912-1928 unknown frame

Hello

I have a frame that has been figured to be from Chevrolet four from 1920's. However, there was a buyer, who came to buy it, but was disappointed as he said it is not from Chevy. Now I'm not going to sell the frame anymore, but I need to find out what the car actually is to be able to register it here in finland. I tried to search images of chevy frames from internet, but without results. Some pictures however show that the rear part of the frame is very much alike the 1927 Chevy frame. I'd like to know how the Chevy frames could be identified? Where is the frame number located and is there a cataloque to compare it?
Unfortunately I don't have any pictures of it. If it is the Chevy frame, it would be great, since my uncle has six of those engines, and that is a good start for a vintage style hot rod.

(My uncle said the frame is from Chevy, but could not be sure. He is working on the 1924 truck.)

Greetings
Risto Nurmi
Oulu, Finland

Hi Riztho,
On the rear beam of my '26 frame I found a S and that would be the only mark I could find on the frame it self. I have seen that same S on several other frames, that could be a clue.
I have 3 pictures to help you a bit.
1- The S
2- The exhaust bracket right side under cab(if it is still on the frame)
3- The right front inside frame
I hope this helps a bit. If you need more help, just drop a message or contact our Norwegian friend Bluezone, he collects them
http://ca.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/stovebolter_1926/album?.dir=2eb1scd&.src=ph&store=&prodid=&.done=http%3a//ca.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/stovebolter_1926/my_photos

Good luck

There was an "S" used on engine castings a few years before, say to 1922, that represented Holmes Foundry Co Ltd of Sarnia, Ontario right opposite Holmes Foundry in Port Huron, Michigan. It could mean the frame supplier.

The circled S is located on the left front frame horn on at least my 1925 Roadster and I think it is on the 27, 28 Roadster and 28 Touring.

At one time I was told that indicated Smith(?) frame as the manufacturer.

.

Hi Suomi
Take a look at this pictures on ebay of a 25-27 Chevrolet frame

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1925...QcategoryZ10076QQitemZ110103042102QQrdZ1

Regards Arvid

There are some similarities between the frame I have and the frame in the ebay. So do I understand correctly that there is no frame number in Chevys frame. No wonder I frustrated on looking for it. I need to get more detailed pictures about the frame and send the here for you to judge.

The frame shown on ebay is a 1925 frame. Notice there is no hole for the fuel gage which eliminates the 1927 and 1928.

The circle S indicates the pressed steel frame components were sourced from A. 0. Smith Corp in Milwaukee - see January 2005 REVIEW.
kenK

I wonder if Smith's had a Canadian arm Ken?

Well, now I do sincerely hope that my frame is from Chevy. I made a phone call and now I have a couple of engines, complete front axle, firewall, full set of wheels and front fenders. I'm still interested about the frame number. Where is the identification number punched in these straight four Chevies? If I remember correctly, there is two holes in the beam above the fuel tank. It would make it either 27 or 28. If it is a Chevy at all. The frame number is important in registration. That's why I so keen about it.

Risto Nurmi
Oulu, Finland

I am reliably informed that there is no chassis number (sorry CAR NO.) stamped on the frame. The fact that it is either a car or light delivery chassis makes no difference in practice I think despite the fuel tank location difference. It did not stop the London assembly plant from making cars out of commercial cars so it should not stop you!

There are no numbers on a frame to identify it. I am also not aware of any place that registers an antique vehicle by the frame, at least not Chevrolet. The identification of an antique Chevrolet is usually by a Data Plate that is attached to the body in some manner (on the side of the seat, on the firewall, etc). Some locations used the engine number for registrations. In one state that I am aware of, if you changed an engine in a vehicle where the engine number was the recorded identification, you had to produce a "Bill of Sale" to cover the new installed engine and the registration was changed to reflect this fact.

In the UK registrations were effected using chassis number / car number, engine number, cylinder block or head casting number, and in one case I think it was with a 490, the steering column part number! Oh, and also block casting date codes! That was handy as we know from old records therefore about casting dates versus eventual assembly and registration dates.

The Finish authorities have always required a frame number since 1922, when the registration became compulsory. If I understood correctly, the number was stamped in the new cars when they were imported, if they did not have it already. The problem is that the usually stamped the first number they saw, and especially with motorcycles, there was a lot of mixing with the engine number. The number is not always been stamped for some reason. I have a 1950 IZH motorcycle with the full history, so I know its been in Finland since new, but it doesn't have any number. In my -26 T-Ford the number is large and clear on the side of the right frame beam. The problem is that I don't have the engine nor the body of this car, and the registration is practically impossible without identification. I quess I have to go to visit the house, where from I found the frame and ask whether they have any preserved old photos of this car. If the licence plate number can be found from those, the identification can possibly be found from the registration office database.

The byrogracy with old vehicles is a bit frustrating in this country.

Risto Nurmi
Oulu, Finland

The beaurocracy is the same in all countries it seems!

The frame number will possibly be "XB" for GM International, Kobenhaven, and then say AB and a number.

Well, I can allways register the car as a new vehicle, but then it has to pass the present exhaust- and safety norms and then there is the Finish car tax, which is someting like $10000-$20000. I don't know for sure. No one has ever done it here.

Frame number was not stamped it was stensil painted on the side of the chassis (approx near the battery )

I discussed with my uncle and he said that his both trucks (-26 and -27) are registered by the engine number, and there is no stamp what-so-ever in the frame. He has two -28 engines and one -27 engine, so if the frame appears to be a Chevy and either -27 or -28, those engines can be used. For -27 engine uncle already has the ID papers, so that can be registered for sure.

Risto Nurmi
Oulu, Finland

Is it really that bad fellas? It is after all only a meaningless number on a chassis frame.
Here the registration branches in the states have disposed of records going back that far, and yours may well be the same, so they will have no idea where or what they are looking for.
If some jerk insists on a frame number then put it on yourself and plead ignorant.One thing for sure is that they will have absolutely no expertise on the matter and will accept whatever is there just so long as the squares on their form are filled in.
These anomallies occur all the time. I have a '24 Overland and they were all numbered on the rear right spring dumb-iron, except mine it would seem. If they insist, it will soon get one courtesy of my number stamps.I will just duplicate one from a scrap frame. Easy fixed.
For what it is worth no Chev Four frames were numbered in Australia either. Registrations were always done using engine numbers.
These days body numbers are becoming more necessary depending on the circumstance, and here in NSW they issue numbers for older vehicles/equipment lacking them originally. Can you too do the same?
Good Luck.
Geoff.

Some of the records have been destroyed and the preserved ones are in possession of county historical vehicle clubs. Some of the record were literally saved from the local landfill. If a vehicle losesits identity, it is very hard to get registered here in Finland. Original registration is the best, but vehicle number or even one of the used licence plate numbers is usually enough. Forged number doesn't work unless you have a preserved registration paper of the lost car and a paperless frame. Then it is possible to stamp the numbers into frame. The key idea is, that you have to prove clearly that this particular vehicle has previously been registered in Finland. Otherwice it will be taken as imported vehicle, and is completely other story and battle to go.
I was told that Chevys were registered generally by engine number, and so the key part to find is the engine block with verified numbers. I vent to photo the frame and I think it is not a Chevy, at least not a chevy four. It has a lot of similar, but the rear plate is different. Anyway it seems to have mechanical 4-wheel brakes. See the pics from the link. There is also some other stuf I think might be from chevy.

http://ladakerho.fi/ladagalleria/thumbnails.php?album=601

Risto Nurmi
Oulu, Finland

The chassis on my '28 truck has a large letter "S" stamped inside a circle on the rear cross member,just above where the spare tyre sits against the cross member.
I also understand the hassles Geoff has been through with the RTA authorities.They(the RTA,Roads and Traffic Authority)had gladly taken my money for 20 years for the every day road registration of my truck,without ever bothering about a chassis number.Even when I first registered it back in 1983,and the number was not anywhere to be found(refer to ozim's reply),all they typed on the form was:"Not Visible",and that made them happy.
Then 5 years ago,they weren't going to register it,unless I went through all the hassles of getting a new chassis number.They wouldn't accept the number on the I.D.plate(22LP3302)
as they said the plate was too easy to remove and could cause problems with "re-birthing" of stolen vehicles!,as if people were going to start re-birthing '28 Chev trucks!
In the end,I was given a chassis number consisting of 6 letters and 7 numbers,that had to be stamped by an authorised blue slip agent(Geoff will know),and have it welded onto the rear cross member!
Rizhto,I'd follow Geoff's advice to save hassles with your registration authorities,stamp either an engine number or some other part number on the chassis somewhere.The chances of them having kept exact registration details going back so far are remote,to say the least,and see what eventuates.

Well, I will stamp the number, any number, after I get one that could be verified to have been registered in Finland. This is a common situation among Finish car and bike enthusiasts and it has lead to so called "paper bussiness". this means that the original registration form might be more expensive than the project itself. For example: "1928 Checrolet frame +some parts €100, With papers €250". This is because just the registration paper can be sold separately with a good price.
The number is not a problem anymore, since my uncle has three engines and he has papers for one of them. And for other two, he has not checked yet. So it is possible to get papers for all of them.
The problem now seems to be, that my frame is not a Chevy four at all. Could you please see the pictures, and see if you can identify the frame and other parts. At least there is one Chey four front axle and a 1934 or so front axle. The rear axle seems to be Chevy, but a later and is it a truck? Link is at the earlier post.

Risto Nurmi
Oulu, Finland

About the frame, there seems to be a rivetted brass plate on the rear part of the rear cross plate (there where the fuel tank is mounted). Most of it is missing but the last three characters are present and they are "-28". There is a dodgy picture in my album. The one with my knee at the backround. Does this give any help? Could it be a Chevy six? Some other manufacturer? The 20's frames are so similar. Except the one whos name seems to be constantly sencured in this forum. Could you tell me why is the F-word banned here? just a joke, or something more serious? I'm going to use the Ford-T roadster body at this Chevy four-banger project. Am I evil?

Risto Nurmi
Oulu, Finland

No not evil, just not original, but coming from Europe I can understand the problems, I'm in Chevy heaven here
And even here you find vehicles made of all available parts during the "dirty Thirties" just to have transport to a possible work place. Farmers still put together what ever works, for the purists a crime, but for the lovers :) a necessity to get the project going and the car/truck working again. It's a pitty, but without the right parts there are no other options for a hobby vehicle unless you can order the parts and have them in a reasonable time. To be sure you'll have to do some measuring on the frame, I can check the measurements on a '26 frame for you. Arvid has a '25 and a '28 and is, given enough spare time, always helpfull.
Have fun
Richard

I see that you have a Chevrolet wheel in the parts, with the bowtie hubcap! Anyhow if it has mechanical four-wheel brakes it's surely not a Ford T. Are the artillery style wooden wheels fromthe chassis? That would tend to rule out 1929, and suggest a 1928 AB car/light delivery or LP truck chassis (depending on wheelbase) if it is a Chevrolet!