VCCA Home Forums GENERAL DISCUSSION VCCA Judging Questions Vcca judging of engine years

Mike - I was trying to cover both, the different or incorrect shade of the color and/or a complete color change.....was doing it in a hurry as my wife called for supper.

Either way it would be more difficult to determine colors than engines as there were more different colors than engines in the last 90 years.

Changing from the long standing rule of the color need not match the tag to matching would not be fair to those that followed the rule and changed colors for the last 45 years.Just as changing engine requirements can't be done once a rule is in place.

Merry Christmas to all -also

Guys, there has been a lot of discussion and it has been a good thread. I have a lot of work to do the next two days and then I am off for a while. (High School Teacher.) These have been objective topics and I would like continue the thread. I will get back in a couple of days. I am sorry but I can't do it now. We have final exams coming up. We will address these. Later this weekend.

Steve

Ray, You are right on about paint. When I restored my 32 chevy, I painted the car the correct color that the trim tag said. This Is what the car was painted when It left the factory. If a person Is restoring his car to be like original and plans to have It judged at VCCA meets, And expects to have a high score for the work he has put Into the car for the restoration, Then why would you not paint the car for what It called for. If It was painted a different color because he just wanted another color, Then he should expect a certain amounts of points taken away. I do not understand how something like this should be allowed, To have a different color then what the trim tag called for. :)

I for one agree about the color, and the correct engine. They should be a perfect match. I for one am going to paint my 47,oxford maroon. IF I ever decide to have my car judged I will gladly take any point deduction for it not matching my cowl tag color of Battleship Grey. Thats just NOT gonna happen...yuk. I went to ALOT of extra trouble to get my CORRECT block, back into my car this summer, and on the other hand should recieve credit for that also. Not everyone is going to have a perfect car for one reason or another. If we start relaxing the standards we all strive for, then just exactly what are we trying to achieve? Historical preservation, or higher numbers on a judges card. You cant please all the people all the time.

...Then I guess I would just have to mount a "new trim tag" there are some available out there , aren't they? I just can't stand to have a old Black on Black 1932 three window coupe, after all I spent a grand putting in a rumble seat and chrome louvered hood doors, welling the fenders for sidemounts, not to mention the $10,000 base coat, clear coat three tone paint job!

All this "not original is OK" stuff is just a bunch of manure.

Come on guys, let's face reality.

Right (original) is right; wrong (NOT original) is wrong.

I don't buy ANY of 348John's "what if's."

Maybe there's something I missed somewhere along the line. But 30 years ago when I first submitted a car for judging, I was told the whole idea of judging is it's supposed to be original.

How can a black car be changed to a red car without points being deducted??? Take this to the extreme and paint it some weird [bleeped] "glow-in-the-dark" color. Wouldn't any VCCA guy go nuts over that when it came to judging???

How can a 41 coupe have a 58 235??? Take this to the extreme and install a 350 LT1 engine and a 700R4 transmission. Wouldn't any VCCA guy go nuts over that when it came to judging???

On the other hand, I think a guy can do whatever he likes to his car. Personally, I'd like to have a 39 four door sedan with modern conveniences like an LT1, 700R4, PS, PB, A/C, radial tires, CD player, GPS, etc. etc. B-U-T I wouldn't be such an [bleeped] as to submit that kind of '39 for judging. Why be an [bleeped] (is 'jerk' more PC ??) and 'waste' the judging team's time???

It seems SO SIMPLE to me, if it isn't original, it's going to get points deducted.

Bill.

"When I restored my 32 chevy, I painted the car the correct color that the trim tag said. This Is what the car was painted when It left the factory. If a person Is restoring his car to be like original and plans to have It judged at VCCA meets, And expects to have a high score for the work he has put Into the car for the restoration, Then why would you not paint the car for what It called for. If It was painted a different color because he just wanted another color, Then he should expect a certain amounts of points taken away. I do not understand how something like this should be allowed, To have a different color then what the trim tag called for."

Hey Donald: You kinda sorta stepped on your own foot with this one. What you are saying about the paint is absolutely correct....it should match what is on the Fisher Body plate and as the car came from the factory. But, your theory here doesn't match your theory about the wrong engine because you have stated previously that it's okay to have the wrong engine since it is too time consuming to check the casting numbers. However, to check for the original paint color the paint number on the cowl plate must be verified! That takes just as long as it does to check the engine casting numbers.

So, what you are basically saying is that the paint color must match the number on the cowl plate, and the color should be as the car came from the factory or points should be deducted. BUT....it is okay for the same car to have the wrong engine and the casting numbers should not be checked because it takes too much time. And, points shouldn't be deducted if the car does not have the correct year engine installed as it came from the factory.

Something is wrong with this picture.

Skippy Boy. I do agree you have to have the correct engine for the year car you are judging, Kinda makes sense. What I do not agree on Is that as we get to the newer year cars,Trying to find casting numbers for those years cars, The judges are not going to have the time to come close to looking for numbers and many other parts on the engine to see If It Is right or wrong for that engine.The newer cars engines are crammed Into the car and It Isnt going to happen. So how do you handle the judging of engines on newer cars. I do agree what chipper said about the cards for each year, That maybe a picture of the engine compartment showing the complete engine would maybe help In the judging process. Remember skip, These are my thoughts right or wrong. This Is a discussion from anyone who wants to participate. Not to stay up all night trying to prove a Individual wrong. Have a happy day. :) :confused:

Hey Donald: Your thoughts on this issue are appreciated! However,I am not trying to prove you wrong since this is just a discussion (and a very good one at that), but rather I am trying to figure out exactly where you stand on these various issues because you seem to zig-zag back and forth some based on your previous postings.

You have a great day too!

:rolleyes: :confused:

I thought I might volunteer to be a judge at the Central Meet in 2006. After reading all this discussion on engines and paint what is OK and what is not I don't think I know enough to judge anything. I also will not have any on my cars judged. I might even remove my VCCA ovals from my cars.

Have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.

I am with you Junkyard Dog on both engine & paint. I can see if a person insist on changing the car color and spend all that money why don't they have a new tag made up to reflect that. Sounds like somebody could open up a new business. You don't have to a complete expert on judging cars if you work in a group with good people and have a good judging manual with the "Chipper" data cards. What's the point of judging if you don't do it right!

42 Bill, I think you are missing something. NO IT IS NOT OK TO HAVE A 58 235 IN A 41, BECAUSE THAT IS NOT THE CORRECT DISPLACEMENT FOR THE YEAR OF MANUFACTURE I also never said it a strange glow color is acceptable. We have accepted that the color is correct for the model and year of manufacture then it acceptable. While I do agree that a person should do the best they can to follow the cowl tag and I have restored all of my cars to the cowl tag as far as color even if I don't like the color, but that is not the norm for many people. Although they keep the car original they might have restored it to a different correct for the year color for some reason or another. Again the person who goes all the way and replaces the cowl tag usually goes all the way in every facet of the restoration, and is reflective all around. I was not asking anyone to buy anything but rather giving you the questions that we have to answer. The awards have the same value for all vehicles, so they all should face the same evaluation. Let me give you another what if.... What if a team of judges does not use the information and the car moves through until another meet? There was a post a few weeks ago about a team of judges who insisted that they knew what the correct color of the engine should have been and refused to look at the documentation. We need keep in mind that these issues do exist. I personally have mixed emotions about the repro cowl tags and endorsing people to install them, so now that the tag is on the car the color is OK? Again that is just my personal opinion and reflects nothing else, but I just question the ethics of it. I just want to leave with one thought that crossed my mind on this whole subject that I found very interesting. The strongest arguments seems to be coming from the six cylinder era enthusiasts (which is fine) but I seldom ever seen one for sale advertised as being a matching number car? Why is that? Is it presumed that they all are? or is really just not that important? Why is that really emphasized on the V-8 era and not earlier? Anything can be made guys. I have restamped a few blocks over the years for some jobs I have done (at the owners request). Those Chevrolets went through all of the "numbers" clubs and had no problems and passed with all of the experts. I like Steve am very busy at work, so I really do not have the time to address this in depth every day.
Have a happy holiday
John Mahoney
Assistant Judging Chair

If I understand it correctly John is saying that-

A 1952 216 replacement block would be accepted in a 1941 as that is how it is listed in the 1952 parts book.When the 1941-47 and 1948=49 and the 1950-51 blocks were discontinued the 1952 replaced them all.

Another example would be a 1936 207 in a 1935-there again it was the replacement for the 1935 in the later years.

The 1937-38 was replaced by a 1939.

For the 1929 thru 1962 6 cylinder engines these are the only examples that I can think of where different looking earlier blocks were replaced with a later block.

This would prevent a 1954 235 block from being accepted as correct for a 1950 235 as an example.(not visibly correct as the motor mount bracket bosses can be seen of the 1954)

Gene, Correct and a 59 283 would not be acceptable for correct in a 57. The visually correct wording is needed, that was an oversight on our behalf
John

If you find a matching numbers early six cylinder for sale, it would have to be fraudulent. I don't know of any Chevrolet documents that show which engine serial number went with what body serial number in the early sixes, of course I've been wrong before - sooo.

On the early Chevorlets "matching numbers" would mean that the casting number, the casting date and the engine serial number would "match" the model year of the car in which it was originally installed.

I've had some titles from over the years that have both, the engine number & the body serial number. Canadian cars from at least 33 to 35 have both numbers on the aluminum firewall tag. To claim matching number on one of those cars would be a little touchier....joe

to the best of my knowledge, the term "Matching Numbers" was created in the '70's by a couple of Corvette Dealers who used the term to cover up the fact that the old corvette lost its original engine and currently housed an engine with correct casting #, casting date and a restamped pad.The term "Matching Numbers" IMPLYS the engine is that which left the factory in an attempt to create a higher selling price for said vehicle. I dislike the term and believe that VCCA(like the other Car clubs do), should judge for correct casting # and casting date at this point in time and leave the judging of stamp pad data for a time in the future when the members are comfortable with the Casting # and casting date judging. mike

I had decided a while back to not make any other posts on this topic as I think my position is well known. But recent activity has spurred me back to the keyboard.

My understanding is that the current criteria in judging engines by the VCCA are that they have the correct displacement and appearance. Is that correct? If so my question is how is a judge going to determine that? Are we proposing to use photographs of the various engines to compare with the one in the vehicle? How does a judge tell a 283 from a 327? 350? 383? How about a 348 from a 409? 427? 454? or 396? 402? How many potential judges know the casting differences in the various engines and can apply them on the judging field without photos? How do you tell a 265 in a ’57 from a 283? By color? What happens if the owner paints the 283 chartreuse? Or the 265 orange?

If my understanding is not correct then what exactly is the criteria and how does a typical judge make a fair and just evaluation?

I am not the most knowledgeable V-8 person in the VCCA but currently own five from ’55 to ’72 and have owned innumerable others. The way that I tell what a block or engine displacement might be is to use the numbers. Yes, I can tell some V-8s from others based on some obvious differences like side mount pads and holes in the ’58 and newer blocks. But I can’t yet tell a ’62 327 from a 283. I am sure that I can do it if I refresh my memory with some photos of the differences in the castings. But every time that I have judged V-8 era vehicles I did not know what vehicles I would be judging prior to the judges breakfast. That was a couple of hours before hitting the field with clipboard in hand. And every case that I can remember the assignment of which of four categories that I was going to judge was not determined until the team assembled on the field. So if I or any other judge does not have the knowledge in his (or her) head how do we give it to them? That is the critical question in my mind.

It is my personal belief that using the “numbers” particularly supported with engine cards containing the numbers and their location is the most accurate, least complicated and fastest means to give the judge the knowledge fairly judge engines. To ask typical VCCA judges to determine if a vehicle has the correct displacement engine is fraught with problems. If I am wrong someone please set me straight.

if all VCCA judges had the "Chipper Cast #/Cast date Cards" when hitting the judging fields of the future, imagine how much more knowledgable those judges would be than they are under the current system. Can't understand why the individuals creating the judging guidelines are resistant to IMPROVE the club. mike

Well, let me go back a bit. The present judging system and the members of the committee were formed after many established ways of doing things in our club were deeply ingrained. When Skip says we used to deduct for incorrect engine and where did the VCCA go in another direction, I must state that before our system was put into place engine deductions did not exist.

What brought this all on was that there were too many engine swaps in the 6 cylinder era. We continued to have members trying to pass 235s on as 216s and members where not catching them. So what happened was we had vehicles coming to meets with juniors and senior awards that had gotten through various National Meets with 235s instead of 216s. That is it in a nut shell.

We had no intention of setting up tech checks at meets which would lock up more volunteer time and more meet time making sure that numbers matched.

We wanted to make sure that vehicles with 235s that weren't supposed to be in the vehicles did not receive an award or move through the system. It was an insult to the standards that we had established. We also did not want 327s and 350s in vehicles where they didn't belong as well. That was the main issue that we needed to deal with. We actually had National Meets where this was happening and we needed to stop these vehicles from moving through the system. We had no intention of becoming the NCRS.

We are working on the engine cards at this time and have put together a large series of data that will eventually be available. After the cards are available then we can have them available for our members to use. We will then have to change our deductions so that we have different deductions for the degree of incorrect engine. For example if we have a '42 216 in a '41 then we can have a less deduction than the 100 pt. if that is what the membership wants to do.

As it stands right now if the member has the correct displacement and configuration for that year of vehicle, and has the engine visably correct, then there is no deduction. You can't have a 283 with side mounts on a '57.

We will be looking into the issues that have been brought up and we will improve the concerns that you have suggested. By the way, we have had only 3 100 pt. deductions for incorrect engine in the last three years. Just thought you should know.


Until a lot of things change we are not going to be able to accomodate all of these requests. What would be of a more proactive and beneficial contribution to our club would be to get more of you involved in the present day judging system. Perhaps then you will see where we are realistically rather than idealistically.

I remember back in 1981 deducting the required 50 points for a 1948 engine in a 1946.So there must have been an engine deduction back 24 years ago.

Not a true statement. If challenged, I will go to the files and prove otherwise. If you have access to the judging results of the 70's and early 80's, check some of the results of the NW meets. This is the reason I have pulled the judging on my 1941.

Steve, with all due respect, it sounds like you failed to do your homework. Both Chev Nut and Raymondo are correct! Points have been deducted for both the incorrect engine (50) and incorrect transmission (50) in the VCCA judging process since the late 1970's! Raymondo has been involved heavily in the judging process at the Northwest Meets for decades, and not only does he have the facts, but he can document the incorrect engine deductions at the past Northwest Meets as well.

"As it stands right now if the member has the correct displacement and configuration for that year of vehicle, and has the engine visibly correct, then there is no deduction."

So, based on that statement, the judge actually has to be more knowledgeable to "visually" tell what the engine is than checking the "numbers" on an engine card to determine exactly what he is looking at. And, some engines you just can't tell apart without checking the numbers.

Sounds like this "new" engine judging rule opens up a larger can of worms than the "correct engine" rule (with points deducted) that we have been using in the judging process since the late 1970's!

:( :( :(