VCCA Home Forums GENERAL DISCUSSION VCCA Judging Questions Vcca judging of engine years

Oh my goodness. What is going on here??

NovaSteveScott's statement about no deductions for wrong engine 'before' the 'new system' simply isn't correct.

At least it certainly isn't correct re Northwest Region (Ore, Wash, BC) Meets. Ray's knowledge of the situation goes back to the early 70's. Mine goes back to the late 70's. I am willing to 'admit' that 'we' (judges at these NW Meets) may have 'missed' some of the incorrect engines; but when we did discover an incorrect engine, I can assure you points were deducted. We didn't just 'make up' the deduction. We didn't just do this 'on our own.' The judging sheets for that category specifically instructed the amount of the deduction. As I recall, it was 50 points.

Maybe I and others are mis-reading (or misunderstanding) Steve's writing. Otherwise, I simply can't understand what he's saying about 'no deductions prior......'

Again, I can definitely assure you 'we' were making those deductions as far back as 30-35 years ago!!!

Bill.

The November 1965 had a new Judging form with the following information.
"Poor 1 point, Good 2 points, Very Good 3 points, Excellent 4 points."

"Under Mechanical
A. Motor, Transmission, and Differential (place 0 if not as cataloged)."

I would like to quote from a 1971 Judging Form. "NOTE TO JUDGES: No deductions for normal road dirt. No deduction for safety equipment such as seat belts, turn indicators, or any state required feature. THE BASIC FEATURE OF THE JUDGING IS TO HAVE THE CAR AS IT APPEARED WHEN IT WAS DELIVERED TO THE BYING PUBLIS."

At that time we recorded on each line the number of points received for that line with a possible of 40 points per line.

Again I quote. " MECHANICAL
A. Motor, transmission, differential, and exhaust system (place 0 if not as catalogued)."

It believe the above information would indicate we have always judged as it appeared when it was delivered to the buying public. I could be wrong. Just my opinion.

When we look at the VCCA mandate which states:
"Dedicated to the Preservation and Restoration
of Chevrolets"
we are left with little wiggle room for ignoring the fact that wrong engines in some of the cars being judged at our meets need to be penalized. The only modification that you will find on my 1940 is the added seat belts ( which the VCCA allows ). So I propose the following:

1. If the engine is correct displacement wise and the correct year of manufacture, NO points deduction.
The owner would document this information on their registration form. We would then have to determine how to verify for a correct engine. Might it be difficult for some years and for some models...Yes, but that doen't mean that we ignore the engine because it takes effort on the judges part to verify the information.

2. If the engine is correct displacement wise but the wrong year, "X" points deduction. Possibly 25 up to 50.
( I personally lean towards 50 points )
If someone goes to the extra effort to put the correct year engine in their car, they should be rewarded for that effort over the person who finds the correct displacement but the wrong year.

3. If the engine is wrong displacement for the car, 100 points mandatory deduction.
Wrong is wrong.
If we can resolve to agree to something like this, then we are left with the question, what to do with all of those other folks that create cars outside of the above criteria? That is a question which we must wrestle with, but for now we need to ask: "Who is the VCCA and what do we stand for?"
"Dedicated to the Preservation and Restoration
of Chevrolets"

www.1940chevrolet.com

On my website, click on 1940 Chevrolet and you will be able to see what I had to begin with when I was in high school. Then you can see the finished product, which has the correct year and size engine in it.

Dave, I like your suggestions. Actually I do not doubt the Gene is right.(He usually is!) I know that we have had deductions for incorrect engine in the past. As mentioned, it was we wanted to make sure that the six cylinder and small block problems were taken care of.

Skip also has a good point about the fact of increased knowledge about engine parts and having to make sure the correct displacement has the visably correct parts to make it appear correct. For example the off-set script valve covers for a '56.

Let's take a look at the problem now that we have discussed it. As I said before I can not dispute that wrong is wrong. How can we quickly get the job done in terms of engine correctness? We definitely must have a reference for that so that every vehicle can be checked. A set of "Cards" or a CD in a laptop etc. is the way to go. We are working on that. However we have a procedure in place already which could speed up the process even more. On the judging form we have a slot for the owner to fill out the engine number. I am going to say that with the exception of the New Jersey Meet, 75% of the forms were not filled out for this portion. It is not that hard to write down your engine number when you are tinkering in the garage and put it on an owner's card or a 3x5 and transfer it to the form. We will fix that this year by requiring owners to put the number down or the form will come back to them. The field entrance check team could make sure that this is done with the team captains double checkinhg with a third check by the tabulation team.

A milled block has a deduction of what Dave is talking about. If the engine is the same year are we ok with that? I think it would be interesting and suprising how many of our vehicles have different engines in them vs. original engines. I do not have any figures but I would not be suprised to see a lot of replacements. Most of these vehicles have a story to tell way before we bought it. I know some of you have had it forever so do not mind the previous generalization.
Then we need to determine a deduction similar to what Toolman is suggesting. Correct displacement/wrong year but visably correct.

We will discuss this among the 15 members of the judging committee. It is a good time to do this because we are in the process of reviewing the revisions and corrections for the coming year.

Thanks for your suggestions.

Happy Holidays,

This goes back to what I said a way back in this thread.....how wrong can wrong be.Even with Davids suggestion ,which I agree with, you would still need the engine number to determine just what year it is...such as a 1939 in a 1938 which is just a "little wrong" or a '51 216 in a '38, which is "way" wrong.

The owner listing thr number would be a great help but many don't even remember to sign the form and a few other simple things that are required.

Sounds as if this will be producing some positive results.....and Steve, thanks for listening.

Merry Christmas to all

Would there be any benefit, That when all the cars that are judged In a VCCA meet, That all judging results be sent back to the owner of the car and those judging sheets, Year after year, Be kept with the car for when the car Is judged the next time. Im not sure everyone recieves their judging results back unless they ask for them. Maybe all the judging forms be kept In a folder so that the judges might refer back to any certain question that may be on those forms. Like car color, Engine numbers, Interior, Or whatever question might arise. It may be a fast way to clear up things that was looked at In prier years. Just a thought. Happy Holidays To All :)

Don,

As I recall this idea of having the 'old' judging sheets available with the car when it is judged 'again' was suggested earlier. Possibly in this thread or the other similar one a while back.

Personally, I don't have a 'problem' with that.

BUT, when it was suggested previously it met with all (mostly all ??) negative response. It might be sorta like 'double jeopardy.'

Also, chances are the car has been changed / improved / corrected / etc. and the then the 'old' judging sheets wouldn't 'apply' and might only serve to confuse the 'current' juding.

Bill.

Don/Bill, Another problem with having the old judging sheets with the car if if points were incorrectly deducted at an earlier meet they might continue to be deducted when they should have never been.

judging sheets are mailed to car owner a week or so after the meet concludes in NCRS. the owners can use the sheets as a guide to improve their cars for future meets. the owners are instructed to not bring forth the old judging sheets at subsequent meets . the car is judged at the subsequent meets based on its merits on that particular judging day. many times i've had owners refer to a judged item from a previous meet wherein the previous judges were incorrect in their call and vice versa.most NCRS owners understand and accept the fact that there is subjectivity involved in the judging process. However, with respect to Casting #'s/Dates, there is just an objective facet were VCCA to employ the Chipper's Cards type concept for judging engines. mike

Hello Gentlemen,
what a good thread this has been to follow.Many excellent comments.I am relatively new to VCCA(joined 4 years ago)and am actively involved with a few of the other large Chevrolet clubs for many years(NIA,Ecklers/LGC/CCI-which now covers all 55-72)Chevy's.My personal interest(own 2 70 Impalas) is in the '65-'72 full size B-body cars.I also judge at ChevyVettefest in Chicago for many years(largest all Chevy indoor show).I have many years of active judging experience with these clubs and have also started participating with the VCCA judging sytem as well.
I feel that mike(ncrs)and several others here are accurately reflecting what is going on in the higher level judging portion of the Chevrolet hobby in regards to specific makes/years type clubs.
I think the club member/car owner who is entering his or her car in a specific club show at a high level should be required to provide the necessary info needed(engine.trans,rear end#'s,etc..)
to facilitate the judges and streamline the entire show judging process.I show/have shown my stock Impala's at high levels(1,000 point,etc..)for years and part of my prep has always been to bring a sheet of paper with all the important mechanical component/members numbers/dates as well as locations for verification purposes if requested.This has served me well on several occasions at major shows during tech check-ins and actual judging.I simply hand it to the judge and tell him to use it as a reference to verify the car is what it is.As we all know,those of us who show cars in typical 1,000 point sytems spend alot of time prepping for such an event,so why not bring "the numbers"as well?
I have also been on the recieving end of such as a judge and it is helpful when verifying numbers.through the years while judging I have noticed the least helpful show goers who intentially leave specific area's of their reg card blank or who are unwilling to provide some basic i.d. numbers for their "correct" stock car are usually the one's with something to hide.So why not request the basic drivetrain i.d #'s upon registration for an am meet or other big show?I do not know too many people in the 55-72 crowd who show their cars in 1,000 point who do not have the drivetrain #'s written down in a folder or book at home/somewhere.As we all know,documentation is all the rage with an original or stock car do to sky high values today.Having the #'s of show entrants cars would be helpful and speed up the judging process on day of the show,imo.Just a thought,here.Jim