VCCA Home Forums GENERAL DISCUSSION VCCA Judging Questions Vcca judging of engine years

This thread has progressed well and stayed on topic.Opinions from both "sides" have been given and I do understand that there can be more than one opinion.My suggestion would be for a board member to print out a copy of the entire thread and read it to the complete board at the next meeting.Just so everyone on the board knows what others thoughts are.Would also be interested in the other board members opinions.

And yes John-The "visibly correct" would be an excellant compromise for now.

I have no opinion on this as my car is being restored to drive my grandkids around and go golfing. It will have the correct color, motor, ect and be as close to original as I can make it with the money I have. I would also like to have it judged when I am done just to see if I could improve it somewhat without costing me a fortune. I know the workmanship won't be 100% but I want to do as much as I can by myself and friends just for the bragging rights. I do believe both sides on this topic have valid reasons. It's just figuring out what is the best. Thanks.

I only have this to say.

I believe that the people showing cars and judging cars on a regular basis should have the major say as to the nickle and dime issues concerning the judging rules subject to vote of the Board of Directors, however the purpose and mission statement should take priority,

The same applys to the touring committee and the members that sponcer and attend VCCA sanctioned tours on a regular basis, they should have the major say as to their touring nickle and dime issues also Subject to vote by the Board of Directors. And also the VCCA Purpose and Mission statements should again take priority.

The Chatter group may only be a voice in the ears of the Board of Directors, but a viable voice. We must realize that there is other voices strong and weak that seek the ears of The Board of Directors.
That is all I chose to say.

As the years go by and we keep getting Into newer and newer twenty five year old and older cars that are accepted In the VCCA, And the engine compartment Is so full that you can not hardly get your hand Into It to work on the engine. How are you even going to find a casting number to see If It Is correct or not. Sure on the older cars, No problem, But not the newer cars. Do you say, Well If the compartment Is too full, Then we will let casting numbers be one thing we will overlook. :)

Know what you mean Donald on our 68 impala we have all the paperwork that was with the one owner car when it was sold, I decided to change the sparkplugs and the sparkplugs were those without gaskets, supposedly from a later year engine. Everything else checked out to be what was on the original sales paper. Well to make a long story shorter, I needed to check the head numbers and the engine numbers, after a day of washing scrapeing and removeing the valve covers the numbers were found and were indeed the original numbers and from the looks of the area under the valve covers the covers had never been off. I determined that the wrong plugs had been put in , examination of the sparkplug holes showed that the called for plugs were correct. But I wonder how long it would have taken a VCCA judge to determine if the engine was correct.

it is not too time consuming to evaluate the casting #'s on a 53 thru 82 chevy corvette, once the judge becomes acquainted with flashlite and mirror. even the powerglide equipped corvettes can be judged with lites and mirrors. takes me about 1 minute to check for casting # and casting date on a 53 thru 67 vette(whose casting #'s and casting dates are in the same location as the pssenger car blocks of a given year). i can't speak for the C-4 vettes that have recently been included in the ncrs judging process as i have no desire to judge them.Engine stamp pad data takes about a minute also unless there is atypia on the pad being judged. if the vcca judging committee were to offer a "casting # school" for interested judges, it wouldn't take long to educate the judging personell.I'd favor VCCA begin evaluating casting dates and casting #'s initially and after the judges get acclimated, perhaps advance to judging the engine stamp pads. mike

Hey Mack. You are right on, How much time can be spent on a engine, Interior, Undercarriage, And so on, Especially when the judges probably spend about a half hour to go over the whole car when judging. I do not know what the outcome will be for judging engines, Casting numbers and so on for the newer cars. If this system Is to be fair for every car judged, I do not see how It can be done for the newer cars and also how many volunteer judges would be qualified to properly judge a engine. At our last Northwest meet we had alot of volunteer people who signed up to be a judge. I was one of three people In my group and I would say we did a good job on two of the three cars we judged, But the third car was a four cylinder car and the three of us had very little knowledge for judging the car. There was other four cylinder cars also judged and not enough four cylinder people to do all of them. We did our best on the one four cylinder car we judged, But what or how much did we miss because of lack of knowing the four cylinder cars. I would think this happens In other meets. Bottom line Is, How perfect or good do we get when cars are judged when you try to get enough people to be a judge, Even If they have very little knowledge about the cars they are assigned to judge. This Is just my thoughts. :)

Ideally we should check everything with a casting number of a seria number on the car....Ideally I say, but that has very little to do with reality, when there is about 10 t0 20 minutes for 4 people to judge a car. I would like to see some realistic ethics in the judging system, each owner should inform the judging team of any incorrect part or deduction that should apply to his car, and the judges could then do a quick evaluation of the car. That would only require honest car owners, is that possible?

Donald: Your point about volunteer judges not knowing what to look for and etc. is well taken. As I understand it, one of the reasons why this new engine rule came into being is for that very reason.....because of the lack of knowledge by the volunteer judges. So, to make things easier, as long as the engine has the correct number of cylinders and the correct cubic inches no points will be deducted.

But....if these volunteer judges don't have the knowledge to determine if the engine is original how are they going to determine if the replacement engine now in place has the correct cubic inches as the original engine it replaced?

For example, the early truck 235 looked identical to the passenger car 216. So, how are these "inexperienced" judges going to tell that the 235 truck engine in a 1947 passenger car is wrong without checking the casting numbers or engine numbers? The rules say that the engine must have the same cubic inches as the original or points will be deducted. Based on what you are saying then, the incorrect 235 engine in the 1947 passenger car (which is incorrect since the car originally had a 216) should be overlooked because the volunteer judges don't have the knowledge to tell which engine is which.

Another example would be the 1968 327 and the 1969 350. They look the same. How is an inexperienced judge going to tell them apart if the 1969 350 is in a 1968 that originally came with a 327?

Here is another issue: If a 1941 Chevrolet has a 1951 Chevrolet 216 engine in place, (which under the present rule would be okay since the cubic inches are the same for both years) but all of the engine accessories like the starter, generator, carburetor and etc. are all 1951 instead of 1941, then, according to the rules, points must be deducted since these are incorrect parts for 1941. So, how are these volunteer judges going to do that? If the volunteer judges don't have the knowledge to figure out what type of engine is in the car, how the heck are they going to know which starter is correct for the year, or which generator is correct for the year, and so forth without checking the numbers on those items? And, if they are going to take the time to check those numbers then they sure has heck can check the block casting number or the engine serial number as well.

Yes, on the newer cars with everything crammed in place, individual engine accessories and parts can't even be seen. Maybe the easy way out for all concerned is to ignore everything under the hood for all cars during judging.

:( :(

Skip you are and so are alot of the others who are experts and so very knowledgable about the different cars, And I fully appreciate your expertise. I wish I was at that point as do many others. Everything you say Is right about how to judge a engine, But the time It will take to do this at different meets by many others who are green horns like me and not car smart to the many different years of cars, And volunteer to be a judge, I do not see all this numbers game of casting numbers and one carburetor from another or whatever from happening, When the majority of the people you get to be a judge can all of a sudden even with the cards full of numbers, All of a sudden be engine smart enough to do It right. It wont happen In the short time you have to judge the whole car. Your last statement really says something.Thanks. If this engine confrontation can not be done for all years cars, Then where do you draw the line for fairness. I do not see any of It going to happen to the modern cars. It could happen on alot of the cars, But I do not think on every car. As I said, I own chevrolets and enjoy them, But Im no expert on the mechanics of them. Frankly, If I was to again participate to judge a car and was handed a card with who knows how many casting numbers or whatever, I would say, Im here to enjoy the meet, and go on tours with friends, You guys enjoy your judging, Im going to go have a Budweiser by the pool and enjoy the company around me with no hassel. Hey, This Is my thoughts and Im saying how I see things right or wrong. Happy motoring on your tours, Have fun at the meets with others :)

Don,
Just to reiterate a point made by the Puppy, Is it easier for a judge who is not familiar with the minor differences in engines to determine by looking that an engine is the right displacement? Do we need to supply pictures of the original engine and possible alternate engines? What if we use the numbers and have an engine card with the numbers and location of them? Which would be faster? Looking at a picture and then trying to determine if all the features in the engine are the same or checking the numbers? Now I don't know about you but I have given an engine card to my wife, daughter and another person who knew almost nothing about an early Chevy 6 cylinder engine. With the card they each found the numbers and determined if they were correct in only a few minutes. Wonder what might happen if they had known where to look for the numbers before "judging" the engine.

When it is easier and quicker to determine (with a properly designed card) if the engine is correct or not then why do anything else. I personally don't know of an engine up to the 70s that the engine number and for most casting numbers and dates are not able to be checked in a couple of minutes. That is assuming that the layers of dirt, oil and grease have been removed. But if the crud has not been removed then the numbers won't make much of a difference unless it is between third place and no award.

I believe that if everyone would just envision walking up to a vintage Chevrolet and think of how to judge the vehicles the best and quickest and then design a system to accomplish that, most of the discussion of by the numbers or by appearance would end. I firmly believe that by the numbers is far easier and quicker if engine cards with the numbers are available. That has been my thought for many years and I still think it is the easiest and best way.

A thought just came to me. How do we determine if the engine is a four, six or eight cylinder? By the numbers? How about counting the number of spark plugs, or plug wires? Maybe we only mentally count them but that is the best way that I know. Does a V-6 look like a V-8? An inline four like a six? Yup, unless you count the cylinders. Is that by the numbers? Maybe not all of them but some!

Donald: Unfortunately, you can not look at it that way since that is not how the judging system was intended or how it works. Judging manuals were created by the TA's for each year of vehicle to aid and assist the individual judge with his mission. And, these manuals also help the inexperienced judge as well. Checking the casting numbers or the engine numbers on most engines is very simple and it is not that time consuming when this information is made part of the judging manual.

You just can't judge part of the car and then ignore the rest assuming that everything else is correct. In fairness to the individual car owner, either you do it correctly or you don't do it at all. With your method in place, it is not fair to the car owner, it is not fair to the judge and it isn't fair to the system. Bottom line, if a judge is unable to use or read the judging manual to look up specific items, including information regarding the engines, then he should not be judging a vehicle in the VCCA, because the end result is meaningless. :( :( :(

HHHMMMMM, Well it looked like a 57 Chevrolet truck to me! They all look like a 57 Chevy to me, my dad had one just like it!

:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

I totally understand and agree with MrMack.

I guess I struggle with this entire string it appears to make a simple thing complex. "as the car was delivered new" if very straight forward. How we should go to assure that appears to be the question. I have had cars judged many times by VCCA judges and many other clubs judges. The VCCA requires all of us to list the engine serial number on the judging form while most other clubs only require modification notification. For the VCCA if the engine serial numbers are as readily available as they appear to be then the checking can be done off-line for the most part. I know that there is a certain range of numbers that apply to the 216 engine in my '40 and that my '70 and '78 350's both have a portion of the VIN as part of the engine serial number. It does not take a great deal of skill to check either the '40 or the '70 & '78 for correctness. At some point we have to trust our membership slightly in regard to serial numbers. Checking casting nos. and dates is most likely out of the range of many of our members and is time consuming. My approach would be to check serial numbers first on the judging forms and only go further if there is a question about authenticity(visual). And, as I've been reminded at more than one car show - the onus is on the member to prove authenticity, not the judge. What many of you appear to be asking for is complete numbers matching which is nearly impossible to achieve. The 70 and 78 could probably survive a teardown inspection but the 40 has been rebuilt 4 times. How many '40 internal engine parts still carry GM part nos.? My guess would be only the crankshaft and it has been turned. So just how far do some of you want to carry the authenticiy verification? Expertise and time are the only constraints.

mike: no club i belong to(many) tears down an engine to check for authentic rods, pistons, cranks etc. just externally visible items are judged. mike

I thought I could stay out of this discussion, but can't.

Each vehicle has to endure a "Field Entrance Check" prior to entering the field. This check is sometimes conducted the day before or before the Judging takes place. Normally more time is available for this inspection.

Two chores need to be done. Require the owner to provide any numbers considered important in the heading of the Judging Form. Second, add the verification of these numbers to the duties of the FEC crew. One judge added to this crew could be the "numbers" expert and make a spot check of some of the more important numbers. This expert could also easily spot any changes that need to be investigated.

Verifying any numbers after the vehicle is positioned on the judging field is very unwieldy and time consuming.

I don't wish to get this thread off subject, however joining the correctness of the engine is duplicated by the paint on the car. It may be painted any color used during that year of assembly. For the early years particularly, paint specifications are very detailed and readily available, even to include changes made during the production run.

This is as bad as the ruling on engine changes.

It seems to me that there exists significant interest in this thread on judging for a correct year of engine in a car. Why not refer this thread and a recommendation to the Judging Committee to revisit this issue?
I personally believe that my 40 should be a numbers matching car in order to carry on the mission of the VCCA. A whole other question should be how to we respond to VCCA members or potential members that want to be part of the VCCA, however they want to update/modify/change the engine? Maybe we create a "Driver's Class" for them? I am NOT interested in attracting Street Rodders into the VCCA, but it seems like we have a number of members that might be driving Chevrolets with the incorrect year of engine in their cars. We might want to satisfy both groups...those who are purists and have the correct engines, and those who want a full oil pressure 216 in their 1939 Chevrolet. I believe that we can accommodate both types of car collectors into the VCCA.

Ray: i agree totally with the paint issue you mention. if the chevy has a trim tag that delineates the color the chevy left its assembly plant, then that chevy ought be judged as such, if VCCA is to follow the "as it left the factory" philosophy. if i elected to paint my 31 anything other than the black it's trim tag calls for, i should get a deduction. there are chevys that did not originaly have a trim tags(53 to 62 corvettes for example). NCRS only deducts for an incorrect paint on the C-1's if there is evidence the car was originally a color other than that which it wears on the ncrs judging field( ie, white paint near the cowl ventilator lid, door inners, trunk area on say a red 62 vette). the 63 up vettes have trim tags that call out the original color and painting your 63 Daytona blue while the trim tag calls for Sebring silver will get a hefty deduction. mike

Colors-two problems

Who is going to decide if a color is correct?I have seen three maroon 1947's at a meet and all were of a different shade.
My '39 was originally dark green - still is but not same as original.Have never been docked for incorrect color.

And half of the memberships cars would need to be repainted to get close to the original color.....would not make for a bunch of happy campers.

If the correct engine would ever be required the other half with incorrect engines would be unhappy.

Its not easy to "change horses in the middle of the stream"

gene: i was referring to competly different changes of exterior color such as original green to resale red. i don't believe there is a good way to judge different hues of the same color(ie dark green vs slightly lighter dark green). regards adnd merry christmas. mike