Just pulled out and reinstalled my seat (37 Coupe) and found one of the body bolts to be right behind the seat and just forward of the vertical woodwork. Both sides, same place. It seems reasonable that I could easily fabricate a bar assembly that would run from bolt to bolt that I could attach whatever lap belts I wanted to attach. Nice and clean. Not obstructing any of the seat movement. No permanent modifications.
But here's the thing. All indications are, a lap belt ONLY (without a shoulder harness) is really a waste of effort. It might keep you from being thrown out of the car but it WILL NOT keep you from being thrown into the dash.
Every indication suggests that with that same bolt point, it would be easy enough to include a Role Bar to go up and around just under the roof line (or even a bit lower, as we're only looking for a functional shoulder tie point) and still impact nothing of the original structure. The space between the seat in its furthest back position and the woodwork is more than enough to squeeze in vertical bars. The problem comes in when one has to secure the strap either at the bar relying on the bar to be secured further back at another frame point. Or using the bar strictly for vertical stability and having only the strap secured further back.
Personally I'd much rather mount the bar at those two bolt points and in some way run the straps (only) further back. I really don't want to damage any of the woodwork but as its pretty much a sealed unit, I'm not seeing any other way.
. How much protection you need is relative. Cars are designed today to have people survive a 35 MPH off-center frontal crash. A 37 Fisher body coupe is not too top heavy and has a fairly strong body to resist crush in a roll over. In High school, many class mates could only afford vehicles of the late 1930s and early 40s with steel bodies. Several rolled their vehicles with teen age driving and some suffered broken bones. None had seat belts but none died. . . I was trying to get some shut eye and let a friend drive my father's 43 Chevy pickup. (Martin-Parry body. Not Fisher.) I woke and looked out the left window to see the ground then turned to look out the right window and saw the ground before (literally) biting the dust after being thrown out of the cab. My friend suffered a sever cut in his brand new pants from a flash light holder on the steering column. The PU landed on it's wheels and Highway Patrol suggested I check fluids before driving. I was able to get it out of the ditch. Using a tow rope to tie the doors shut I drove home. (40 miles.) . . . I am not recommending making this a routine procedure, nor trying to guarantee you would survive a similar 45 MPH roll over. Three point belts would have improved our situation. A roll bar would have made little difference. Had we landed top down in a ravine, the roll bar would be beneficial. Wooden vehicles made in the 1920s and hardtops made in the 1950 need a roll bar. . These are my thoughts. I have not crash tested 10 identical vehicles as required by insurance COs. So you want to know what happened to the 43 PU. The engine is in a 37 PU. The 4 speed trans in in another 37. and the doors are on a 42 dump truck I bought about 10 years ago. First photo is cab of 37 PU as it's buried in back. Second photo is the 42 dump with Dad's door at a VCCA tour. . . . Sorry to be long winded and say little. . Lou . . .
By "coupe" are you referring to the business coupe? The Sport Coupe (same body as the business coupe)? Or are you using the modern lexicon that anything with two doors is a "coupe" and are referring to a two door sedan? My 38 business coupe has absolutely NO room for a roll bar without making major modifications.
VCCA Member 43216 Save a life, adopt a senior shelter pet. 1938 HB Business Coupe 1953 210 Sedan
Business Coupe. Not a Sport Coupe (which I'm not sure was even made in 37). And not a 2 door sedan (which is indeed what some people will call a coupe, but it's not).
And although I'm asking about a role (or is it roll) bar, this is really more about ending up with a working shoulder harness and not so much for protection in a role over situation. I guess it's possible but I'm not really anticipating going fast enough or reckless enough to role it over. A front end collision with my kick butt, stop on a dime, works pretty good but never great Brakes... now that's WAY more likely.
And I just looked at the pix Bill. Way great information. If the Chevy is comparable, and it probably is, that's definitely something I can work with. I'll keep you posted.
I installed seat belts in my '37 coupe. The outboard mounts were just inboard of the body mounts. The inner mounts were on either side of the tunnel. I did use large washers to spread the load out on the floor. I never knew if they were really adequate to provide any real protection. And never tested them!!
If you are trying to install shoulder belts that will actually restrain a person it would not surprise me if you have to modify the seat back. Plus the upper mount has to be behind the occupant. I looked at the pictures for a -35-40 Ford coupe. That upper point is pretty far forward.
As a side note, I worked for a company that designed and built cabs and ROPS for construction equipment. Our designs had to include seat belts that restrained the operator during a rollover scenario. During our testing the deformed structure could not hit the operator. The testing also included load tests on the seat belts and mounts. It's been a while since I did that work so standards and regulations may have changed. We would pull on the seat belt with at least a 3000 (yes thousand) pound force.
Last edited by Rusty 37 Master; 01/29/2401:48 PM. Reason: More Info
I noticed the far forward position on the ford also. And having been around Fall Protection equipment and their standards, I'm aware of just how much strength is required to stop a 200 lb person i.e., way more than one would expect. So yeah, this may require some serious thought. And in all reality, it's not really the thought, it's the willingness to do what is necessary to REALLY make it safe. Not sure I'm there yet. Not sure I want to run bars to the rear of the frame... which is the only true solution.
One “trick” we used with the belt mounts was to minimize direct pull on the bolts. The more angle the stronger the mount - up to the limits of the mounting structure.
This is an interesting post ! In 1965 at 18 y's old after a party in my 37 MD 2D, I followed the car in front of me into a snow bank slamming the top of my head into the steel section on top of the windshield ( no permanent injury but it might explain some stupid attacks I had a a kid and I'll spare you the details on the party but I am always aware of the danger of the absence of a 3 point restraint. I'm planning on leaving the "37" alias "Aunt Betty's car" to my grandson now 11 yr old but concerned with this safety issue. The previous mention of a fall protection device got my attention as a jury rig. Any thoughts? The car is total preservation and modification is ok with my for this purpose.
It would appear you have some time to contemplate a plan of action. Personally I can't see a better way to truly Safety Up a vintage car than with a well thought out role bar system and harness. My concern (being an old restoration guy) is not to do anything that is irreversible to the car. If it's going to be driven, it needs to be safe. If it's going to be collected and maintained in pristine original condition, then it doesn't.
And if this car is going to a kid, then it not only has to be safe... it needs to be cool. If it's not cool then he either won't drive it at all (and you might want to prepare yourself for that possibility not matter WHAT you do) or if he DOES drive it, he won't use the safety features because that's NOT cool.
The good part about that particular car (I'm assuming it too is a 2-door sedan) is that you won't have to fight a wall behind the front seat to get the bars to fit. Not sure exactly how it'll be run but probably not too difficult to figure out. Nothing a bit of time and thought won't fix.
Oh, and don't think that your 11 year old can't help. It'll definitely go a lot slower but you'll both remember those times for the rest of your lives.
