VCCA Home Forums TECHNICAL - 1945 AND EARLIER 1912-1928 Grumpy's 1927 adventure

A couple of my grandkids call me Grumpy, and there is already a 1927 1 ton thread, so I had to make it different. Well I have my truck home, and I am a bit overwhelmed. I did score a really nice set of 27 rear fenders with it. I didn't know the guy had them. That's probably the high spot so far. It's rough. All that's left for wood is the cab back, and the passengers door has enough left to pattern off. There is no floor wood to speak of, no frame or anything, and obviously no roof, and none of the rest. The roof I see as being easy. I have some drawings of the arcs I found on the jalopy journal sight, and some really good pictures here in a search. I am confident I can figure the doors out being I have the one really good one to go by. I don't even know where to start on the floor though, or the door hinge posts. Can someone help me there?
Also looking for some decoding I guess on the numbers on the block. The seat riser with the vin tag on it is non existent so playing the title game will be fun.
I'm not sure what shape the motor is in yet. I just know the guy I bought it from kept it inside for the last 30 years and kept pouring diesel fuel in the cylinders from time to time, and told me the previous guy did the same. The oil pan is full to the top I think of oily liquid.
It's going to be a long road back for it. I'm not even sure where to start. To me it would be good to get working on some wood patterns and get tore into the engine to see if anything in there is of any good. I did get a whole spare engine but it was out in the weather. Both engines look like 28 engines with the duel outlet exhaust and covered push rods. Hopefully some one will be able to give some clues by the casting numbers.

David

Looks like you have a 1928 truck. Engine is definitely 28 and is a truck engine denoted by "T" in the engine number. If it has front brakes its model LP. No front brakes model LM.

Hey David,

Congrats! I've seen rougher projects. ;-) At least the tires hold air!

I noticed one of your pics shows no front brakes, so it might be an early 1928 LO one ton truck. The LP trucks had front brakes and were made in the last half of '28.

The casting date on the engine (E 19 8) means May (A=Jan, B=Feb, etc.) 19, 1928. This supports the notion of it being a '28 model LO.

Yes, the T means it's a truck engine and the 4513508 means that it was the 4,513,508th four cylinder engine made since they started them. ;-)

Another verifier of this being a '28 truck would be if it has a four speed transmission. If there is a latch on the shifting rod, that is the reverse lock out and is a '28 tranny. The '27 LM trucks came with a three speed and the four speed was standard for '28.

I suggest squirting a little automatic transmission oil into the cylinders and let them soak for a while before trying to turn it over. Did you get a hand crank with it? Those are handy.

I also suggest that you get a reprint of the 1927-1928 shop manual. There's lots of good info in there. All the vendors who advertise on this site carry them and you'll also find them on ebay.

Welcome to the wonderful world of the late 20's Chevy one ton trucks!

Cheers, Dean

Thanks guys. Dean the tires don't hold air, and are in rough shape. Your correct it has no front brakes. But as far as it being a 4-speed, if the determining factor is it having a reverse lockout, it does not. It is just a straight shift lever. I can't get it to move as of right now. I have the top of the tranny off where the shift lever goes in and have it soaking with penetrating oil to hopefully get it to move. Is it possible that LO trucks if they were early enough could have had a 3speed in them, or ordered that way, or was there a 4speed made without the reverse lockout?
I did not get a hand crank with the truck. IDK if the engine is set or not. I know the rear wheels won't roll on the ground, but if you jack the rear up the differential turns (spin one wheel forward, the other goes the opposite direction) The gears slide on the shafts, in the transmission so not sure what's going on there.
Sure whish I had the seat riser with the ID info. Would make things a whole lot simpler.
As far as the shop manuals, do they go into anything on the cab wood (repairs to it because of body damage etc) If I just has some illustrations it would help. I think I could figure it out if I at least knew how the floor framed up (does it bolt direct to the frame, isolation in between, thickness and shape of pieces, etc)
Gonna be a long road.
David

Hi again,

I believe all the four speed trannys for the one ton trucks have the reverse lock out lever, so your transmission must be a three speed.

That being said, I can think of two possibilities for having a '28 engine mated with a three speed transmission:

1. The truck is an LM (1927) because of the three speed and the '28 engine was dropped in at a later date when the '27 engine failed.

2. The truck is an LO (first half of 1928) and at some point the transmission failed and a three speed from '27 was available and was dropped in.

Both the engine and the transmission ('27 and '28 one ton) are bolt in affairs and can be dropped in either model without much effort.

Does the top of the vacuum tank (mounted on the firewall) have four screws or eight? If four, it is correct for 1928. And, if eight, it is correct for 1927.

Please post a photo of the passenger side of the engine compartment. Maybe there is a clue there.

I cannot think of any other ways to identify what the actual model year is for the truck.

If you can get your hands on a four speed transmission, you could call the truck an LO. Actually, the granny first gear of the four speed is very useful in super slow driving, like in parades or pulling out stumps. ;-) I put a four speed in Lurch, my '27 LM and he loves idling at walking speed for parades.

Dean

. Let me add a few photos to what Dean is talking about. The first 4 speed offered as an option in 1926, 27 and 28 models X, LM, & LO has two bolts holding the shift lever on. It is pictured in a 1926 model X. . . . .
The next photo shows the second 4-speed. It came standard in a 1928 model LP was used till early series 1931 LT. The later series 1931 model M 4 speed was used till 1947 with minor change in 1941. The orange 4 speed in the background was used in 1948 and newer trucks. It has syncro and spring loaded reverse lockout. No lever. . .
. . Lou .

There are only 4 screws holding the top of the vacuum tank on so it would be the 28 style. As far as the shift lever there are no bolts holding it in, nor is there the rod down the side of it. The top cap that holds it in is smaller I guess you would say, (no bolts holding it in) but it appears to be like two round head drive in rivets coming in on each side of the casting holding that smaller cap in. Being that I have the whole top off the transmission with shift lever and forks etc, I was looking at the gears in there, and the way I see them moving is the rear sliding gear (bigger gear) goes between a reverse gear and probably 1st, and the front sliding gear (smaller gear) going between a second and third gear. I will try to get more pics as we go along.
I'm thinking I probably for sure want to pull the head and check out cylinder wear and condition, and flip it over and pull oil pan and see what the shim situation looks like on the crank and rod bearings, if I have room to work there.
David

David, neat project! I hope you enjoy it- I’ve started with worse and brought them back! It’s a great feeling to see something like that come back to life.

To Lou and Dean, will the later 4 speeds you mentioned bolt up to a 27? I am searching for a tranny for my project and a granny first would be ideal for this parade truck.

Yes, a '28 four speed transmission will just bolt up into the space where a '27 three speed came out of.

That's exactly what I did with Lurch. I knew that someday I would pull the three speed out (it used to slip out of first gear automagically) and put in a four speed. I built up one four speed out of the best parts from two four-speed trannys and had it sitting in a back shed for a few years. When I rebuilt Lurch's '28 engine in 2017, I changed out the tranny too. It was much heavier than the three speed, but it bolted in nicely.

Cheers, Dean

Welcome, join the sickness. LOL I have some parts, ConnerV has first look. Building 2 trucks out of 3 chassis and 4 motors/trannys. Phish

PS Jimmy Hoffa not in your motor, he was in mine.

A 4spd gearbox wasn't offered as an "optional extra" until the early 1928 LO series 1 ton truck was produced Lou,the std gearbox being the same 3spd as a passenger car,but with a larger universal joint and associated parts for the 3spd.

LO was standard 3 speed gearbox, LM was 4 speed gearbox.

Steelin_Time, I respectfully think that you've got it backwards. The LM was a 1927 model and the LO is the follow-on model for the first half of 1928. The LM came with the 3 speed and the 4 speed was offered for the LO.

Dean

All I know is I have 3 chassis with 4 wheel brakes and (4) 4 speeds. I was told my good truck was an LP. Drove it this afternoon for a bit. Relined brakes are amazing. No problem stopping from max speed 40ish. Phish

Dean's correct Steelin_Time.The 3spd gearbox was standard in all 1 ton trucks up to,and including the LO series.The 4spd was offered as an option beginning with the early 1928 LO series trucks,and has a totally set of gears & ratios compared to the later 1928 LP 4spd.

. Hi CJP's 29, . . The GM literature is sometimes contradictory. Low production and end of year items sometimes do not get listed correctly. Artist conceptions with no product yet available (Vapor ware) is sometimes a misrepresentation of the real item. But I doubt that GM would list a transmission for 2+ years if it was never available. Look at transmission case #361221 for LM & LO. (See photo of parts book.) . . .
. I know it was available for the model X cuz I have one. (See photo in previous reply.) The drive line in my 26 does not appear to have ever been apart. Since the Model X was made in the early part of the 1927 selling season That might explain why the Cab and Panel bodies were available on the model X along with optional 4 speed transmission but not always mentioned. (See Early Chevrolet History by Doug Bell, near bottom of page 99.) . .
. Lou .
.

Spyphish,
I would be interested in getting some parts from you if your moving any of them. From your pictures it looks like you may have a number of things that would be helpful to me. I don't know what ConnerV is all interested in, or if he is first in line for whatever you have? We should connect though to discuss.
As far as the transmission thing, a 4 speed may be nice. I would have to hunt one down though. My 3 speed does have issues. I have been soaking the shift lever where it goes into the top plate with penetrating oil, and have yet been able to make it move. Also that forward most gear on the splined shaft has internal and external teeth. The internal teeth mesh with a forward most stationary gear in the housing. Well the first 1/4in or so of those teeth on that stationary gear are non existent. I did take the head off last night. Not a pretty sight. The ridge isn't too bad, but lots of rust. The valves don't move at all. There is no visible major damage (cracks) that I see, so that's a start.
On to the body, I also took some measurements and compared them against a drawing I found on the jalopy journal site. They come out quite well. This drawing doesn't do much though in the way of how to construct a floor. I need better dimensions of that thickness, etc. I'm not sure what the dimensions on the open door picture are all portraying yet. It is hard to make out where they stop and start, and I just didn't take the time yet. I'm hoping I can find someone close by I can visit, or maybe someone has some of their old wood to share with me.
Grumpy's 27 or 28 adventure moves forward!

Making a little time here and there to make progress on the truck. Sometimes it's only 15 or 20 minutes, but it's something. After pulling the head off and the transmission shifter cover I think I'm going backwards more than forward. I was hoping the engine could be made run-able, but I guess not. 1,2,and 4 cylinders cleaned up ok and I think could be salvaged, but once I removed the rust in number 3 cylinder I had pits in the wall. All 4 cylinders have ridges. Their weird in the sense that the ridges are consistently heavy in all cylinders on the pass side of the block (if I'm recalling right) and they get lighter as you come around to the other side. Either way with the pitting in number 3 cylinder this block may very well be junk. IDK yet if the pits are too deep to bore out. Then it would be finding over size pistons etc. Have not pulled the pan yet to see how the bottom end looks.
Also been spending time on researching rust removal on the body. Lot's of ideas out there on web. Some say use this method, others that one. Then the next forum would say don't use those methods or that product because it's the worst. Some like Por to cover rust up, others hate it.
Read too much and have myself on information overload, and unsure what to do.
Leaning toward, using phosphoric acid for rust removal after wire brushing with a cup brush on a grinder. May have to sandblast some of the harder to reach areas that are heavy enough to take it. Then wipe down with acetone. Then using the acid again diluted to etch it all, then priming with a good self etching primer. Then start repairing parts.
I did get someone close to me that has a 28 1-ton who will let me come and measure and take pictures so hopefully that will put me well on my way to making cab wood. I did get pricing on wood from one of the guys out there. It's in the thousands for the whole cab.
As far as the transmission I have another one on the extra 28 car engine I got. The gears in it look good but the top wasn't on the housing, and everything is so rusty in there IDK if I could get it apart to try to make 1 trans out of the two.
I'll post more pics soon of other progress being made. I just about have the whole outside of the cowl derusted, then I need to do the inside.
Any thoughts, idea, input, appreciated, and if anyone has parts to help the cause please let me know.
More later,
David

If the block is otherwise okay the cylinders can be sleeved. I have run several engines with sleeved cylinders. If done right they can be as good non sleeved blocks. They also can be sized to use available pistons/rings.

Dilute acids particularly Phosphoric can be good aids in derusting and relative safe with the proper protective equipment. They also aid in etching the surface to increase the adhesion of paints and fillers. Acids are not as effective as abrasive blasting with pitting or heavier rusting. I routinely use a metal prep (phosphoric based) on surfaces with rust removed to help reduce re-rusting.

Great project David.
Since no one has jumped in to reply to your observation regarding the cylinders having consistently more ridge on one side of the bore than the other, I will field that little quirk. It is a result of normal crank thrust where the pistons are constantly forced against the wall of the cylinder that the crank is "throwing" the pistons at.
Looking forward to your ongoing saga. Should prove to be very rewarding.
........Joe.......

I kinda thought that with the consistent wear it had to be some kind of a dynamic thing. I looked a bit into sleeving this morning. I'm gathering from research that just sleeving the one would be better than all 4 as the boring it would take to do all 4 may weaken the block too much (just one person's opinion)
I have no idea as to the cost. I would guess it would have to be at least a couple hundred bucks to do one.
If the block can be bored and salvaged I guess I have read that later model chevy pistons can be used but one has to bore the rods to except the wrist pins.
Dean had a pretty good thread on rebuilding his 4 cylinder. I will have to read it again. I've tried looking at the "schools in session thread" but am having a hard time following it with the way it's formatted, (unless i'm viewing at it wrong)
I really need to tear into this thing at some point, and see what else is bad. With as "Grumpy" as this thing is been so far who knows?
Not sure what I am going to do with the trans yet. I have an extra 3-speed trans here, but the gears are all rust.
David

David, I sent you a PM (Private Message) with some info. Click on the flashing envelope next to your name on the upper right side of the page.

Cheers, Dean

Called a local machine shop today. They said they can sleeve that bad cylinder no problem. Maybe they can bore it enough to make the pits go away. If this block has never been bored and they could go say .060 over with it maybe it would come out. Pits look kinda deep though. I've read and heard that 261 pistons fit ok. The machine shop thought there might be any number of options. Are there any to look at besides 261's that perhaps raise the compression a bit for a little more umph?
BTW I asked them for a ball park...for boring he told me they get 50.00 a cylinder, plus what ever the sleeve would run. I didn't think that was too bad. Now I just need to pull the engine and get the pan off to see how the lower end looks. Hoping to have around a grand or less into the thing, with my labor being free of course :)
David

I have engines that have all 4 sleeved. Never an issue. Running strong for 15+ years. Blocks of this era were real metal, not like the aluminum alloy of today's engines. I would have all 4 bored the same or sleeved the same to keep the power stroke similar. Uneven power (different cu inches) will create vibration and uneven wear. Great for short term light use, but not for long-term. A friend of mine owns the 1 ton dump truck with 4 cylinders sleeved and has no overheating issues. If it works in Nevada 100+ degrees its good anywhere.

Have not done much with the engine of the truck other than taking the head off. At first I had ATF soaking in the cylinders for probably 2-weeks. One cylinder eventually let the ATF run down past the rings. Two, three and four though never seeped down. So I sopped that out with some rags and put some WD rust release in those three. Thats been soaking in there probably 3 weeks now and has not dropped level a bit. So those pistons are pretty set in there. IDK how I'm going to get it apart given thats the case.
Been cleaning up areas of the body (cowl mostly) I have it almost all de-rusted and ready for some primer, and repairing the bottom edges where it nails to the sills. I've got some other parts in primer already.
Been doing quite a bit of reading on the method of using molasses for rust removal. I've got a good 30 gallons here that I picked up the other day. I just need to make (come up with) a tank to soak parts in.
Today the state patrol came and did a vehicle inspection and filled out a report for me to send in and get a vin# and bonded title. He said it shouldn't be a problem, will just take some time.
I'll keep plugging away, and learning as I go. Lot's of parts to acquire to make it complete again. Wanting to get some sills, doorposts, and windshield frame work ordered to get me a good start on getting the body back together again. I'm confident in making the rest. Not hearing back though on lead time on the sills. The other pieces he had in stock.
David