VCCA Home Forums GENERAL DISCUSSION VCCA Judging Questions Accessories

This is for the ACCA Judges Committee and no one else. Read at your own risk. It is also long and redundant. Boring stuff.


It boggles my mine every time I see a "Plain Jane" has won a show. I think there should be at least 100 points deduction if the car is a bottom of the line critter with no accessories.

The way it's set up now, the rules and judgments by the judges, compels one to de-accessorize an entrant of all accessories. For example, if you have the wrong antenna on the car without the appropriate red ball antenna, it is better to take it off and suffer lesser points for the stinkin hole.

If you have a locking gas cap and it (being pot metal, in the first place) will have either some pitting or less definition around the grip edges. A reproduction should not count for anything either way>

The notion that accessories should not add value to the points system is ridiculous. What's the point of searching for original accessories or loading up a car with them?

I think all cars judged should have points added for accessories. I suggest two points added for each different accessory available for that year. Three points for hard to find items such as a 1941 Reel Antenna, original umbrella or outside temperature gauge. No points off or added for a not too good and n-working item.

I acknowledge that this subject has been brought up before and has been argued to death but it still hasn't been properly reasonable minds such as mine. So the beef goes on. Until they get it right and in line with my way of thinking. (Note: I ain't holding my breath.)

Any accessories that were available from the dealer for the next year model should be accepted with no deduction but if in excellent condition, two extra points.

No more of that "Plain Jane" "trailer Queen" beating out a nicely accessorized top of the year line. It just ain'tf fair. Say a 51 bottom of the line with no fender skirts beating out a top of the line 51 Station Wagon with one small dent in a trim ring. It can happen the way the rules are now.

This here right here is not a complaint. It is merely a heads up that the citizens of the realm are not happy and are talking amongst themselves. They are becoming hostile. They may soon make demands. They are gathering up plow shares and pitch forks. The rumbling has started. Powers, et al, over these matters should pay attention.

If I were a judge and had to judge a "Plain Jane" I would take off 100 points right off the top. When the owner complains and asks why, I would tell him it is owing to his car being downright ugly. Relatively speaking, of course.

What are your thoughts concerning my learned opinion? I don't think the judges would mind a few thoughts from the grass roots crowd. Fire at will. The notion that accessories can't help but can hurt, is discouraging and more full of holes than fish net. Is too!

Best,

Charlie

BTW: You all know I need help so, please, no disparaging comments.

BTW2: I salute our judges and the VCCA Judging Committee. Do too!

Charlie, You and I are at a judging meet and we have identical cars - year, model, color etc. The only difference the judges can find between our cars is that mine has the proper Fulton visor. So, I get a few hundred extra points and win first prize. Are you going to be happy with that?

I would bet that there are NO judges that know what ALL the correct accessories are for 1941 Chevrolets.............

Not to mention the 1911-1940 models and the 1942-1993 models. Or should you get more points for a more expensive convertible than a Town Sedan.

Then the moto as deliverded by dealer changed to how many accessories can you hang on a specified year.

Kaygee,

No, I wouldn't be too happy. In fact I would shoot myself.

Gene,

If a judge has not done his due diligence on what accessories are appropriate on a specific year model then he has no business judging it. Accessories are important.

The man who has not sacrificed to obtain a rare accessory for his car but has sold an extra pig in order to stick a stinkin Fulton on it, is one who may never realize true happiness, except, maybe, at the funny farm.

There is no honor amoungst us old car folk for those who "steal" trophies by presenting a non-accessorized examples of a particular year. Accessory laden, top-end examples should rule the day. : Agrin:

Charlie

I don't participate in judging but if I did and using "Charlie's Logic" I would add all the accessories I could find for my car. That way all those extra points would make up for the things that are not up to high standards.

Steve D,

As they should.

Welcome aboard the logiic train. It's running on track one and is called the zephyr. Is too! .

Charlie

Charlie... If you think the judges judging your car are all the "experts" for that year, then you haven't been to a VCCA judging show. It's all just volunteers that are not allowed to judge the same class their car is entered in. Regular guys like you or me...

You're definitely joking, right?!?!?

Verne

VERNE............Charlie is super bored again and is just throwing stuff out there to see if it sticks. Does it all the time, and its boring, irritating , not funny.

Needs to get out in his garage shop and actually do something functional with his 41 super duper deluxe.

mike lynch

Mike,

Your statement is noted.

Charlie

BTW: What part of my lead-in wasn't clear enough to avoid such a hostile comment? "Read at your own risk. It is also long and redundant. Boring stuff." In the future I'll try to make an more elementary discouraging statement.

CHARLIE, get out there in your garage shop or whatever and accomplish things on your beloved 41 super doper deluxe's.

Its much more rewarding than hammering a keyboard. !!!!!

Ya get to swear when things go wrong, drink beer and spit at mosquitos for fun, have wife bring you lunch with pickles, bust a knuckle or two, back to more swearing. Best of all in this intense heat and humidity a little or a whole lot of sweatiness , might make you more appealing to the wife. ???

I just wiped the sweat off my brow from 6 hours at it and need to relax, watch the blue jays & cleveland

mike

Gene, I have to disagree with you on your pessimistic view toward those who judge. You would be surprised how much our membership does know about 1914-1995 cars. That's my point, our judging system and manual state, "when in doubt, ask!" If a judge isn't sure we MUST not be afraid to let the team captain know that there is a question. Nobody can claim they know everything. Charlie, There is no difference between a plain jane Stylemaster business coupe and a Fleetline Sport Sedan when it comes to our system and evaluating the restoration and preservation of Chevrolets. If the accessories are GM and listed in the documentation that the owner supplies then the condition of the accessory is the key. A locking gas cap that is pitted is what is presented by the owner to the judging team then there will be points deducted for the pitting. If the business coupe has a painted metal cap that is correct and in good condition judges are not going to deduct just because the other car has a locking gas cap. If you don't want points deducted for the pitted gas cap then find an NOS or reproduction that is in great condition and problem solved.

If you put non-GM accessories there are instructions in the manual to deal with those. (Foxcraft fender skirts on 55-57, for example) As long as the accessory is GM and was offered by Chevrolet in Chevrolet literature there should be nothing to worry about for point deductions unless the condition is suspect.

Thanks for your reply post. I understand.

If I ever have a car judged, I'll take as many accessories, whether pristine or not, off the car as I can. Under the club rules, leaving them on would seem rather ... well, rather uninformed of what may happen. Basic accessories such as a radio and heater will have to come off as well.

I am disappointed that a pristine and rare accessory does not count for anything but I understand that too. I will merely take advantage the rules of the club. by eliminating anything that may cause a problem.

Thanks again for your response. There may be others who need the information as well as I.

Best wishes,

Charlie :

The quality of the restoration is what the car is judged on........period.

I agree with Chevgene......car is judged on the quality of the restoration......:.... chrome plating, .body- paint ..upholstery , and how close its deemed to be to way it rolled off factory floor.

If you have managed to acquire a serious amount of factory and dealer sold accessories, that only shows your willingness to open the wallet and splurge. That should not be to your benefit nor should it go against a car not loaded with accessories because the owner wasn't willing to open said wallet at a contest of restoration.

A lot of times a car can have so many accessories on it that it seems gooped up with said items. Detracting from the lovely lines and overall look. We do not all see the car with the same eyes and vision the gooped car owner does.

If said owner was to get hostile because the non gooped car wins the trophy, he needs to be educated as to why his car fell short. Rather than throwing a hissy fit and stomping off never to come back.

mike lynch

Charlie,
I wish you brought this subject up to me while we were watching the rain drops together on Thursday at Hershey.

I own a plain jane 1962 Biscayne, that I restored pretty much to the same level as my 1960 Impala that you saw last year at Hershey. My Biscayne has about every dealer and factory accessory and option that was available for that car with the exception of a few, just because i did not like them. However I ALWAYS bring copies of factory documentation with the cars whenever I show any of my cars. So my advice to you is put on any accessory you want, just make sure that it is correct for that year of manufacture.and was authorised by Chevrolet, and is in the best possible condition.

This is the problem is with higher trim level cars, that car is more vulnerable to loose points, because there are more things to go wrong. . In the case of the Biscayne the only side trim is the rocker panel mouldings, which were standard equipment, so I don't have to worry about getting any deductions for items that are not there. Another great example is a four door to a two door has two more door jambs and two more outside handles amongst that can contribute to points lost. While it was pointed out that in earlier posts that not everyone knows everything, which is true. The big problem is when a judge/captain assume that they know everything because they never saw something before and do not ask. I have had this happen to my cars several times. Now if I can I make it a point to tell the captain that there are some items not commonly seen that might be questionable and I do have documentation for everything if there are any questions. Never presume that something is common knowledge either, so make sure you have all the info..

I have heard in some of the Low Rider Shows on the west coast that the vehicle with the most accessories contributes to winning, and that is fine if it works for them.

The quality of the restoration falls under four areas Condition, Workmanship, Authenticity, and a Part Missing.

The pictures of the car you showed me last Friday before we left looked great! I can't wait to see the car in person.

Charlie... Another thing to consider is just how seriously you want to take the whole judging thing. As with everything in life, there is a large spectrum of people involved in VCCA judging.

The left end are those that don't care a whole lot, and what they get, they get. Don't wash the road rash off, because it was just as much fun getting the car dirty as it was displaying it on the show field. They know some things are wrong, but are not going to change them because it's their car, and that's the way they like it.

About the middle you will find those that take the extra effort to restore their car correctly, to the best of their abilities and budget. They pay attention to the results, and take the feed back home and look to improve their car based on the continual learning process and advice from other members. Maybe drive the car a bit too, because after all, it is a car.

Waaaay over there on the far right, you find the guys that trailer the car to the show, unload it for the show, and load it back up after. The focus is on winning the show, as it is a competition and second place is just the first loser. Any and all expense is used to make the car 1000+ points. Their happiness at the end of the day is reflected by the trophy case at home.

Now here's the thing... You have to pick what makes you the most happy. Is it the drive to the show, the show, or the trophy case back home? There are 7000+ members in this club, and 7000 spots on the scale of where we all fit. There is no "right answer".

As for taking the options off the car, or worrying about the score card... decide if it's really worth the worry or not. Where do you fit on the scale?

In the 6 shows that I've had a car judged in, I can say that the most educational part of having your car judged does NOT happen on the judging field. While the show is happening there is a lack of communication and sharing of opinions and knowledge as the focus is on getting the cars judged. If we were going to spend time at each car discussing all the info and the facts with every owner, we'd be at each car for hours... not the allotted 20 minutes or so that we have.

Most of the knowledge and info comes before and after the show. The guys that hang out in the lot at the hotel, sitting with different folks at dinner and discussing stuff, getting out there on tour day and looking at other guys cars when they have time to talk. Even hanging out here on the chat site is beneficial! The social aspect is just as important, and goes a long way to making your car and your knowledge of it better.

Thanks Mike, John and Bruce,

Your response to the dilemma have merit. As I stew I'll mull over your points. In the meantime let me say that I still am a bit upset about the whole senerio.

For instance there is a NOS, in the box, day-night rearview mirror now on eBay, I would like to add it to the grey 41 but what is the use. If I had the stupidity of even having the car judged given the rules, I would be compelled to take it off. That's owing to the fact that it is not perfect. There is minor checking in the mirror surface and the rim. Hardly even noticeable but a sure sore to the eye of a unforgiving judge bent on making the "Plain Jane" hauled in on a checker-board floored enclosed top of the line trailer best in the class.

Bruce, there is no such thing as starting out with more than 1000 points or making the car 1000+ points. It should be that way but nooooo can do.

The current method of judging begs revision.

As to the trophy or not then why even have judging? It should be to show appreciation of a car well done and with at least as many options as looks good on it. Rarity of the option should count for something too . A minor defect in a rare accessory should not cause a deduction in points; it should be ignored. My first and only in person attended was the at the Indianapolis Speedway way back in the seventies (70's.). May have been 71. Can't remember.

I get tired of seeing the results of the anniversary meet judging when you see "Plain Jane" after "Plain Jane" pictured as having won for best in their class, etc. Are they the best example of what came across the showroom floor. Did they even make it to the show-room floor. Probably not. They were out back where you had to take a tram or horse and buggy to even get to where they were hidden so as not embarrass the dealership. Yet now, they come across as the best example for their class. Just shoot me!

I had a good friend in the club who had a 41 two door Master Deluxe Town Car. It had zip as far as accessories go. I think it won every time it was showed. The owner grinned about it and rightly so. Under our antiquated rules, he merely presented the "Plain Jane" and carted off the trophies and laughed at the competition. After all his car was the best example of the class that year. Give me a break.

If you have a car that was even a showroom qualifier and ever showed it up against the"Plain Jane" with both in equal condition, you will soon realize that you are not going to win. The "Plain Jane" has nothing for the judges to nit-pick over. Your car is toast and you should have never entered it in the first place. The only way an accessorized top line car is going to ever be judged best is by default I e. nothing else in the class.

Back to the stinkin mirror. If I was going to get it and put it on the car and go up against a "Plain Jane" with no glare reducing feature, guess which one is going to get points deducted. Now you see the point? Well, let me explain: there is absolute nothing that can go wrong with a factory supplied simple rearview mirror. Nothing.

Don't get me started.

Best,

Charlie

BTW: You all know I ain't just right.

Charlie,

Is is possible that the plain jane car was just a better quality restoration? To accuse someone of picking on a higher trim car really does not make sense.

As far as the mirror, it is nice to think someone is looking that close at all of the details. At most you are talking 1 point, the most.... all cars over 975 progress anyway. Take a step back, have your car judged and see where it falls and take it from there. You are presenting an argument for a hypothetical situation

charlie if the guide mirror your talking about on e-bay is the one in the brown box with part no 982447 it is not the correct one for a 41 chevy. it might be for a later year car,because as far as I know the correct ones would be like the picture on the box with a wide flipper and would have 3 screws on the back, which is also wood grained like the stock ones. If it were me I would pass on this one. DLZ

charlie see e-bay item 19265013613 this is the BLC generic one, the guide one has guide glareproof on the flipper bar. these would be the correct ones DLZ

[quote=John 348/340HP,
..

I have heard in some of the Low Rider Shows on the west coast that the vehicle with the most accessories contributes to winning, and that is fine if it works for them.

The quality of the restoration falls under four areas Condition, Workmanship, Authenticity, and a Part Missing.

.
[/quote]
JOHN..........I talk with 345 king out of California , a member here, and Perry said that the low rider custom guys have chased the price of the accessories way up and out of sensibility.

I see those cars online and see the fultons, curb feelers, fender markers, driving/ passing/ fog lites along with traffic lite viewers , vacuum powered ashtrays, lighters, for mostly the 35 master and up chevies.

There is a pair of NOS VENT WINDOW INSECT SCREENS 1937--1938 asking $800. currently on ebay, a little way over the top price wise, because if he sells them, a boat load will appear looking to get same money.

One new segment of the old car hobby the Latino factor and the style they like can lay waste to all the accessories for sale.

If said Charlie of the Carolinas wants to gook his car up with 41 accessories, better have a thick roll you be packing.

mike lynch

JOHN..........I talk with 345 king out of California , a member here, and Perry said that the low rider custom guys have chased the price of the accessories way up and out of sensibility.

I see those cars online and see the fultons, curb feelers, fender markers, driving/ passing/ fog lites along with traffic lite viewers , vacuum powered ashtrays, lighters, for mostly the 35 master and up chevies.

There is a pair of NOS VENT WINDOW INSECT SCREENS 1937--1938 asking $800. currently on ebay, a little way over the top price wise, because if he sells them, a boat load will appear looking to get same money.

One new segment of the old car hobby the Latino factor and the style they like can lay waste to all the accessories for sale.

If said Charlie of the Carolinas wants to gook his car up with 41 accessories, better have a thick roll you be packing.

mike lynch[/quote]


Hey Mike,
You are 100% correct it really is amazing how much money is spent by the low rider guys on accessories. I had an NOS 1959 Locking Gas Cap in the GM box on ebay a few years ago and it was bid up to $475. I was hoping to get my money back, which was $100, Being into the X frame cars I subscribe to Low Rider because they drive the reproduction parts market on 58-64 full size cars. I am always amazed on the hours the spend on paint work,

Charlie good thing you did not buy that mirror, not only was the silver flaking off but it was a non GM aftermarket part! Now that would have hurt especially if the plain jane car had the correct one.

Brewster, I don't know of any owners of trailered show cars (that win) that have a trophy room with trophy cases, I heard that it is rumor created by people who tour to get people to hate us more. , Just joking... but it is true most owners of high end show cars never stop improving their cars, and more importantly they are their own best judges of their cars, critical of ever aspect.

It upsets me when I talk with one on the in people that professes to have all the answers and he states " you can't use a genuine parts book for only the year of your vehicle to document a part for a given vehicle." He stated " those books are for replacement parts."

Backroads

" You cannot use a GENUINE PARTS BOOK "....... "those books are for REPLACEMENT PARTS ".

Isn't a GENUINE PARTS BOOK , example a Chevrolet parts book, to identify the original parts and their part number, for the specific application , the person is looking for ?????

Those parts are for replacement parts or original GM/Chevrolet parts.

WHAT are you talking about ?

If one uses a 1940 Chevrolet parts book it will cover back quite a few years and give the application number for a part that MAY FIT OVER A FEW YEARS.

Who are these supposed ** IN PEOPLE ** your referring to. ???

mike lynch

This debate is frequently experienced by the Ford pickup guys . . . parts books list the side mount spare tire bracket for 1953 - 56 F-100s (and in Canada, Mercury M-100s). However the factory did not offer a side mount for '53 but as the cargo box is identical, the bracket will fit a '53 just fine. So some carry that parts book to judging meets to "negotiate" their position on whether their vehicle or another entrant's vehicle is correct for the year.

The Chevrolet Master Parts Catalog, Master Price List (or whatever they called it at the time it was printed), is an excellent source of information with regard to parts application for our Chevys. It is great to know what vehicles share parts. This can every helpful. HOWEVER, sometimes a part might change but still work on an earlier model. Many times this new part is listed as correct for the older vehicle when stocks of the original type part are gone. A part that fits and works is sometimes different from the factory installed part. I have catalogs for '33, '34, '35, '36, '38, '39, '41, etc. If the appearance of the part is critical, I consult the catalog from the year of the vehicle then check the later ones for additional info.

Mike

I fully agree with Mike.
I have many "parts books" ranging from 1912 to the 1980s some different issues in a given year. Following the appearance, substitution, elimination of parts and their numbers can be very informative. It must be cautioned that there are errors, some repeated multiple times, that can be confusing. Also there are identical parts with different numbers and differences in parts under the same number.

CDP, Mike and Chip are all correct!

Always consider if you using a replacement part or and original issued part from when your car was made. An example would be the 32 carburetor, Carter 222 or 212 (think those are the correct numbers), in 1937 Carter came out with a replacement carburetor with a number 569S, it is listed in the parts boxes as correct but it is a replacement part. Also in the 50's the books call out a Rochester carb for the 32 and it is also a replacement.

The Carter 212-S is the early carburetor for 1932 passenger cars, the Carter 235-S is the late carburetor for passenger cars, and the Carter 222-S is for 1932 trucks.

I have a Carter service page indicating that the 569-S was available as a replacement in 1941, not 1937.

The 569S is basically a 1941 carburetor with all the many improvements made in 1941. The only difference from the W-1 used in 1941 production is the linkage arm.

My copy of a Carter form 4551L list several carbs from 32-34 replaced by 569S. It's dated June 1939 revised Sept. 1948.

That's what makes the club valuable. We are all "lifelong" learners.

My friend and former business partner showed high point Mopar muscle cars and was very knowledgable. He said there were instances where the exact production part was never offered as a replacement part. I can see how this could happen.
I like my old cars to have the correct parts, but I am glad to use a replacement while I search for the one I want.

Mike

Mike that is not unusual in the parts business. At one truck OEM that I know of the parts division was completely separate form the manufacturing end of the business. They simply got the specs for the part-sent it out for quotes-and then decided where to purchase for resale.

Not for no stinkin' Fulton but for a correct accessory, no matteer the condition, you-betchum, Red Rider.

Best,

Charlie