VCCA Home Forums TECHNICAL - 1945 AND EARLIER 1933-1936 34 Pickup overheating

Yes, I have read the postings at least through 70. So much good information. And yes, I have read Peter postings on overheating. Thank you Peter, and those who helped him. I am new to this forum, having just bought a 34 Chevy pickup. This truck was "restored" 40 years ago and sat in a garage since then. Not sure yet if it is a Master or a STD. It does have a 120 inch wheelbase, but all the gauges are centered. Maybe it is a hybrid. The truck overheats quickly. Replaced the thermostat with a 165. It still overheats. The lower radiator hose is kinked, so it obviously has no wire in it. I will replace that with a wired one. Both hoses get hot. There are bubbles in the radiator, more with a run of the accelerator. There is actually a light banging sound too, which seems to be the bubbles inside the radiator. So i am going to begin by following the head torquing sequence to 75 ft lbs, but suspect I will have to replace the head gasket. I will begin researching where to get one. The block serial number is 837231. Thank you all for being out there, and I am open to additional suggestions. I believe the most important thing you can know, is what you don't know. I don't know 34 Chevy's. Maybe 47 Indians some. I will post as I go, not to educate you guys, but as a source for the next new guy to read in solving his overheating problems, which seems to be a common topic, and I might add no pun intended, a somewhat heated topic !! Have patience with us new guys, you were there once too.

All 1934 trucks had the 1934 Master pasenger car engine. The only difference is there was a restrictor in the insulator under the carburetor to limit power at higher engine speeds..........The head gasket would be the same as a Master car. I would suggest getting the gaskets from a sorce that sells Best brand gaskets.
While anything is possible it sounds as if either the head gasket is bad or the head is cracked.
If it is a 1/2 ton truck it will have a 112" wheel base. Will have 5.50X17 tires.
1 1/2 trucks were much, much longer.

Thank you for your reply Yes, the tires are 550 x 17

Any suggested vendor for the gaskets ?

YES...www.fillingstation.com...

Guy
Welcome to Chatter. I note you have already read through a pile of postings on a common problem so I guess you know there are several possible causes. There are 2 main possible causes of the bubbles in the radiator, the easy 1 to rule out is to tighten the packing on the water pump shaft, another is not so easy to fix but you have mentioned it is a blown head gasket or cracked head. The 2 latter will cause overheating as well while the 1st often does not cause overheating.
Tony

Welcome to Chat. Please pull the head and check for "sheets of rust" in the block and head. This is what these engines "do" when stored a long time. You can not just pour water/anti freeze in there and crank it up and expect it to run "O.K.". "Sheets of rust" will break up with the use of a engine cleaner/water. Then they will also break up into smaller chunks and this plugs up the openings where the gasket on the block/head is. Also plug the water pump, raidiator. Flushing backwards will only cause these rust chunks to float into a new hole. Flushing your radiator backwards may free up large chunk rust that is plunging the small holes in the tubes in the upper tank. Be sure to remove both hoses before flushing. The radiator runs with "head space" (air in the top) not like a modern system to allow expansion of water. The radiator has a sprinkler in the top that fans out the hot water. This may be plugged up. Back washing may free this part of the system up also. Water level will drain out the overflow tube until proper level is reached. Many people mistake this as not proper but in 1936 that was normal. The system is non-pressurized. Fluid is never right up to the top of the opening in your radiator. You may add water when temp. gauge starts to rise. You are right on the hose. Remove and check thermostat. Place it in a container with water, put it on the stove, apply heat, watch it open. Proving that it is working. Good luck. There is lot of good advice on this chat site.

ok. So I pulled the head today. I took pictures of the block, front to back, cylinder head gasket both sides, and the head. I don't understand how to include pictures here. If any of you knowledgable folks are interested in helping a 67 year old newbie, send me an email and I will send you the pics to help me diagnose Haddie, 34 Chev pickup.
guymonroesf@gmail.com

My plan, subject to everyones input, is to clean the surfaces, look hard for any cracks, and if seeing none, put her back together with new gaskets. Not sure yet how to torque that one headfbolt that lives under the temperature sending unit. I usually pull on a torqued one, then put that much oomph into it on the one that the torque wrench can't fit.

one piston does look very different than the rest, lots of extra weird stuff on top, I'm thinking that was the one pumping compression past the head gasket into the cooling system and the weird stuff was water mixing with the fuel.

good news is, not a ridge on the cylinders.

I bought this girl to give me something to do......and so far she is giving me plenty !!

any tips are greatly appreciated.
guy

I did tighten the packing nut. That took about a 1/3 turn, then the grease cup. That did not resolve the problem. And yes, flushing the block and radiator are on my list of to do's. You guys are great, and thanks for all your input.

take the cylinder head to an automotive machine shop and have the head checked for straightness and also cracks. They use a special system checking for cracks and can repair them if found.

Take a machinists straight edge and check top of the block, end to end and angled end to end looking for possible runout, using feeler gauges. Ask the machine shop whats acceptable.

Next take each head bolt and check the shaft for stretch visually and also end to end using a caliper. If any problems you can get new ones from the FILLING STATION.

probably the most common problem is somebody finding that cylinder # whatever is leaking due to the pure white clean spark plug , owner gets his handy dandy 18" long socket bar and over tightens the bolt causing it to stretch and create a weak spot. If the bolt no longer has the correct clamping power it creates a weak area.

There is a whole correct method to doing these repairs so you do not have to do them again.

Do it once, do it right

mike lynch

I have found if a cylinder is getting water most if not all of the black will be gone leaving that cylinder clean metal. While the head is off I would be scratching as much gunk out of the water jackets as you can, remove the lowest water fitting you can find and use that as the flushing exit point for the gunk after you have thoroughly scratched all you can.
Remove the radiator and have it rod cleaned (at least 1 tank removed and a suitable sized rod poked through all tubes so water definitely flows. This can be done while the head is being checked and serviced.
Tony

Thank You Mike and Tony. I shall follow your advice. Doing things right the first time pays off in the long run. Again, your help is appreciated.

There seems like 14 holes for water in the head. Twelve match up to holes in the block for circulation. Of those 12, 10 were occluded with rust and gunk. I think that could well be my problem. They cleaned out, as far as i could go, quite easily. Today I will take the head to get it magna fluxed to see if there are any cracks, none visible to the naked eye.

as well as the head gasket, carbon leakage between 5 &6, and water leakage at number 4, as shown by wet head bolt and gasket evidence.

While it is apart have the machine shop check the head both block and manifold surfaces for straightness. Also check the top of the block. Anything more that a couple of thousandths can spell trouble in the future, particularly the head/block.

Guy, the only other difference with the Master engine found in a truck is the cooling fan. The truck fan is slightly larger in diameter, but it is the increased blade width that moves significantly more air through the radiator. I actually found a truck fan for my 1933 Master Coupe and it improved the cooling.

With reference to posting pictures, that is a mystery I have not cracked. I posted one picture in the 1933 - 1936 Members Cars section, but a large version of the picture will not open when you click on it so you can only see a 1 x 1.25 inch picture of my 1933. I see other have the same problem, while others don't. PFM, so unless the website receives a massive update I would not plan on posting photos.

Engine blocks and heads are extremely hard to find. I think the best thing you could do is to take it to a machine shop and have them check it out. But do not trust them to clean out your block or head. Doing it yourself is not all that hard. Get all the rust and rust gunk out of the bottom of the block. A power washer is good on that... Or high pressure garden hose. I also use air pressure, too. I run a wire through every hole I can find in the head. I do not have to tell you to wear safety equipment. Oh! the garbage that comes out! If you do have a crack it can be fixed. The better machine shops can make it like new again. Trying to find these parts are very hard. Do it right the first time and you will not have to do it over. Gasket sets... there are many vendors that sell these. Look on the net. Head bolts can get stretched with age and over tightening. New head bolts are on the market. They use to use a special off set wrench to get the head off with called a "Manifold Nut Wrench". When going back use the proper tightening order. I use three rounds of proper order in tightening the bolts to the correct pressure. I start light pressure and increase each round until done. The old book says to check your head bolts and manifold bolts after 500 miles. You might be surprised at what "setting in" will loosen up. Check with a local parts place to see if they have it or can order an off set wrench. Kanter Auto Products sells a lot of parts. kanter.com But we each have our favorite suppliers.

Thank you all for the information. The head is at the local machine shop, a good old honest machinist who has worked on my old Indians, to be magna fluxes and checked for warp. Thursday or Friday I will get it back. I'll let you know what the machinist finds. He knew what the engine size was by the head and valves. He has been around the block.

Does anyone have a good picture of the water circulation holes in the engine block. My two center ones were at about 3/16 of an inch open. In the matching head they were about 1/2 inch. I have carefully chipped away, and now have drilled them out to .415
The holes do not seem to be the exact same size everywhere.
The stuff being drilled out is tough, but not cast iron tough. It is almost a grey metallic color. The inside walls of the hole is very, very irregular in depth, so I'm thinking is was not part of the original casting.
I don't think I want to drill them out more, until I know more.

the water hole opening in the block or head has no relation to the opening in the cylinder head gasket.

I believe the water openings in head gasket were used to slow the water flow down. Allowing the water/coolant to absorb more heat from the block.

For instance a 1931 Pontiac 6 head gasket was full of 1/2" water holes , but the same motor produced for 1932 had most of those same holes eliminated . Only explanation is an upgrade to the way a 1932 Pontiac 6 cooling system operates. You so rarely see the 32 , its hard to get an accurate opinion.

Oldsmobiles of the mid 20's of the 24-25-26 -27 had major changes to the cylinder head gasket design , sometimes mid year.

I'd leave to stock holes alone.

The main problem with cooling these early cars is the fans cannot draw enough air thru the radiator. 4 blades really don't cut it stock. The truck fan has a higher pitch on the blades and that seems to cure the problem, but every thing else.......radiator, block, timing all have to be right.

mike lynch

One thing I learned from experience is that the crankshaft pulley must be correct for the engine. My '34 kept boiling over on warm days until I figured out that the crank pulley was too big, forcing too much water into the top of the radiator, then overflowing before it could drain down through. Adding more water would not help. I tried adding a restricting washer in line but that didn't help at all. Only after I changed the pulley to a smaller one did I cure the problem. As someone stated above, the water level will normally be well below the top of the overflow tube.

Ron
By reducing the crank pulley (harmonic balancer) you effectively slowed the generator, water pump and fan. As a general rule the water pump is capable of shifting more water than the radiator is capable of flowing so slowing the water flow rate to match radiator flow rate which may have helped in your situation.
Tony

Results back from the machine shop. The head has no cracks. However, the head is warped by 11 thousandths. He plans to take 12 to 13 off to correct it. Hopefully I will get the head back tomorrow and put it on. I will check the dampener pulley for correct diameter as well. Thank you all for your replies.

make sure you also have the head bolts or studs checked for stretch. If they have been ++over stretched++ by over tightening , then they will not be able to apply the torque clamping evenly on the cylinder head..

Also see if the machinist has a bottoming tap for the bolt holes.

Try to borrow a clicker type torque wrench where it snaps when you have hit the correct dialed in number.

DO IT ONCE, DO IT RIGHT.

mike

Will a good machinist know how much stretch is too much ?

Any stretch is too much. Easiest way to check is to line the threaded section of two bolts together. One will have head on left other on right. If the threads of the two bolts do not fit together at least one is stretched.

Don't worry about it, this is not brain surgery, just tighten the bolts to spec torque or if you have experience you will know how tight to turn the studs. Best thing to do is buy a new set of studs and you will have no concern. Any you guys have much experience with these old engines probably has had the fun of tightening all the head bolts then breaking the last one. Then you get to spend more exiciting time pulling the head off and trying to fish out the broken part. Did people swear before automobiles were invented?

The 1934 Master engine head bolts were also used o216 engines until 1953. 1/2 - 13 by 4 1/2 " LONG.
i NEVER HAD A PROBLEM REUSINGTHEM. tHERE WERE NO TORQUE FIGURES GIVEN IN 1934 BUT 70 FOOT POUNDS WAS USED ON THE 216 ENGINE

Thanks. The bolts are fine. Threads match up, and inside the head to end are within 3 thousandths. Thanks again for your help. I'll have the machinist verify.

Head bolts checked out ok with the machinist too. As I torqued, 20, 40, 60, and started 70 a head bolt broke off. Soooo I am looking for head bolts. I would prefer new, but filling station does not have them. I do have a used one coming, but if I could get new( due to my present experience) I would prefer that. 1934 Chevy Master, as confirmed by engine and head castings. Any help ? And yes, I will use a new head gasket.

Guess my post went elsewhere. The machinist checked the bolts, no stretch. As I torqued them, 20,40,60, then to 70 one snapped. No it was not the last one. The second to the last one. Sooooo I am looking for new head bolts. The Filling Station did not have any. I do have a used one coming, but I would (after this experience) prefer new ones. Anybody have a source ? And yes, I have a new head gasket coming.
Patience is a virtue, and I'm working on it.....

studs would be a better choice than bolts.

You may want to look into a company called ARP who make the best bolts or studs. Definitely expensive but your buying quality. Unfortunately they do not produce them , just checked

Everybody hates having to do a job the second time.

If you snapped a bolt , then its obvious the bolt was flawed.

A clicker torque wrench is dead accurate, UNLESS somebody has failed to unwind it to zero. You either buy a new one or get your old one re-calibrated so its accurate.

At a car cruise nite last week a guy I was talking to had a torque wrench laying in his trunk..........question what are you tightening. Wheel nuts he said . I see that the wrench is set 90 ft pounds, it should be unwound to 0. Said its been like that in trunk for at least 4 years. Said you ever break a stud, oh ya, month ago.

Wasting my breath trying to tell him how the torque wrench is to be treated. Works for the government, he failed IQ test so got a job.



mike

I would agree, the bolt was obviously flawed. I missed it. The machinist missed it. Next. I do reset my wrench to 0 after use, and it is a clicker. I did run a tap in the holes to clean them out. I did put a couple of drops of oil on the threads before torquing them. Sometimes ____ just happens.

I don't have a problem switching over to studs if I could find them.

Broken piece came out easy....... welded a nut to it and turned it out with a wrench. And yes, I protected the block from welding splatter.

I don't mind paying more for quality. But there does not seem to be any options for bolts or studs..... I will keep on researching.....

Again, my humble thanks for folks input....

ARP had some 50 thousandths shorter....... since the machine shop had to take 35 thousandths off the head to get rid of some rot, (read as putting from rusting) that makes them only 15 thousandths short. And no, the original 4 1/2 inch bolt did not bottom out. How do I know, by ore measuring before installation. They sell a head bolt thread lube, claiming 19-15% more clamping power, I ordered some and am considering using it and lowering my torque to 70 final not 75-80 recommended. Any thoughts or experience on this ? The new bolts are big block bolts they sell. They can torque to 130 ft lbs, not that my block could handle that, but they should handle the 70 ft lbs easily..... feedback ?

a prior poster chevy guru or junkyard dog recommended 70, not 75--80.

Your on the right track now with the studs, expensive but worth it.

Don't forget to spray the cyl head gasket with K & W coppercoat or permatex before putting down. Stops the microscopic scratches in cyl head from leaking.

Re torque cylinder head after running for a day .

mike

If you go back to my Aug. 1st post I said 70 pounds, the same as a 216 engine.
In my opinion I sure would not use studs on an over head valve engine.

As mike suggested spray the gasket with coppercoat or permatex. I use a product "holymar" spray on when all surfaces a smooth and if any pitting near a opening I use the holymar paste. It not only fills any gaps but acts as a glue after it warms up and sets.
Tony

and the reasoning is ??????

most race or hipo street motors use them , especially small and big block chevies. A company like ARP exists because there is a need for a supplier of better grade head bolts/studs. It may be OVERKILL , but its good overkill.

If low quality stock bolts are not readily available, why not step up to grade 8 bolts/studs that in your wildest imagination would not break at 70 foot pounds.

mike

Head installed, roughed the cold valves in at .010 and .017. Thank you Terrill for the instruction in an earlier post. The truck runs great, however it still overheats. The radiator flows water as fast as my garden hose puts it in, and if I hold my hand over the bottom radiator hose fitting till the radiator is full, it gushes out 4-5 inches. I tried running it with the top hose disconnected when warm ( thermostat open) with the garden hose supplying new water, and it flowed heavily(6-10 inches) out of the top radiator hose until the cold water eventually hit the thermostat closing it.

Conclusions: 1) radiator does not seem completely plugged. It flows water.
2) water pump seems to be pumping plenty of water

I am open to suggestions .....
And no, I am not that slow as a mechanic, I took a week of to visit South Dakota !!!

There are no longer bubbles showing up in the radiator while running, so that is better .

well your making great headway in solving the problem. Make sure the thermostat is down around 160--165. These motors do not need to run at 190--195 like a newer engine.

Try this test with hood on and closed. Run engine at idle, 650--700 rpm, take a 2 foot square piece of bed sheet that would be similar to a cloth diaper. Put it in front of grill/radiator and start at 12" from the grill and move it inwards until the fan pulls the cloth forward on its own.

If the cloth is drawn too the grill and ***stays there on its own***, then you have sufficient draw to be able to drive the truck at low speeds without overheating .

Millen PHIL from Ohio went to great lengths to examine my post about how the fan can seriously reduce the heating problem. Phil ended up using a 34-35 chev truck fan 4 blade which has a bigger pitch to the blades than pass car. And that my friend is the secret to getting it too cool.

A whole series of posts was done in the 33-36 section about a year or so ago if you wish to look it up and read it. I have no idea what the title of thread was other than overheating. ????

I discovered the fix solution for my 1935 chev std 3 w coupe that had a 422 cu in olds V8 motor in it when I bought it in 1970. I used a Chrysler 7 blade steel fan that a friend gave to me to try.

Vintage air in texas makes a 6 blade heavily pitched steel fan for less than $50 that would have to be adapted to work on an original stock water pump.



mike lynch.................

Even if your radiator has good water flow that doesn't necessary mean that the radiator still has good heat transfer.

JUNK YARD............tell him how to properly examine the radiator fins, that would be a better reply.

Personally I would have the top and bottom tanks removed and cleaned properly including rodding the tubes of any debris

mike

When the heat transfer is greatly diminished in an old radiator due to age, I don't mess with it......I replace the old radiator with a new unit.

and that's getting even harder to find somebody who actually rebuilds radiators cores.

NOTE......the radiator fins must be in solid contact with the louvered fins in order to be able to extract the heat properly. That's the answer that should have been posted .

Today most of those guys are out of business, as everything comes brand new in a box from ?????

WALKER RADIATOR in TENN makes a top quality NON aluminum radiator that will cool your vehicle. Altho they are primarily a supplier of rads for street rods, the rads are meant to cool small and big block chevys in our cars.

mike lynch

Let me muddy the water a bit more. I pulled the 165 thermostat that I replaced the 180 with. I ran it with no thermostat. It idled for 30 minutes, and ran three blocks with water temp (according to the gauge) sitting between 125 and 150 degrees. Why did I stop? You wonder. Well, the fuel pump wants to be rebuilt !!

My thinking is the water pump is aging, and the radiator is aging, and both prefer the "no resistance " of no thermostat. After rebuilding the fuel pump, ill run it a bit. But, I think I am just buying time.....I'll probably do the water pump and radiator together. I am lucky, we have an old school radiator shop here that has been in business since the 40's, and the old guy who owns it has been around the block, and supervises the young ones that do the work.

The fins do seem to be touching the core at 95% of the area.

Also be sure to check if the baffle behind the water pump is securley in place.

No problem in my area for a shop to rebuild radiator cores. There are several local shops that provide that service and I have had two radiators done and what a difference on the cooling! I won't mess with an 80 year old radiator that won't cool. In that case a new radiator core is the way to go.

Old Guys Rule....Let your "old" radiator guy have a look at it. He will set you straight. If yours is in the "hard water" of New Mexico like mine was in the Texas Hill Country; then it will have to be "boiled out" to remove lime build up. In any case I would not just run out there and "buy" a new one. Give that old guy a chance at it first.

I much prefer fixing, as opposed to replacing with new.

That said, and you will get a good laugh at this, I was convinced the fuel pump needed rebuilding. Which I did. Then I thought it was vapor locking..... only to read old posts and discovering the heat riser issue.... nothing but a little bump on the outside of the manifold, and I'm sure(well I'm thinking) all the guts are missing inside ....as I distinctly heard the gas boiling as I poured a little in the carb to try to get it running after "vapor lock". My education continues..... and I enjoy it all.

considering where your living and the general temperatures down there in that state.

To not attack the problem 100% is foolhardy. My information flow ends here.

mike

It is all trial and error. Could be something as simple as a loose fan belt. We are all hobby guys when it comes to this. The same thing our Grandpa's faced on these cars. But when you fix it; then you sure can be proud of your Chevy.

To bring this thread to an end. I’m back from the hurricanes and pulled the radiator and water pump. The water pump baffle plate was installed backwards, and more importantly had become loose, falling down exposing part of the cylinder wall. Thus, poor water circulation. It had lodged in such a way as to not be hit by the impeller.

Now, all the symptoms begin to make sense. Clarity is there to a once confusing set of symptoms. A new water pump, radiator will be done by an old time expert, and I expect to reinstall the 160 thermostat, to slow down the flow.

Never rule out the crazy and impossible. My humble thanks to all of you who helped me through this saga. It has been great fun, and I look forward to the next.
guy