VCCA Home Forums TECHNICAL - 1945 AND NEWER 1955-1957 Engine Problems

Hi all,

I am having trouble with my '56 Bel Air. I have a 265 V8 Powerpac. After our fall tour in the first week of last October, I put my '56 away for the winter. I never touched it until the third week in March. (Can you believe we put our vehicles away that long?) When I started it up and after it warmed up it started to smoke a bit out the left exhaust (separate pipes on '56 duals.) The smoke smelled kind of a sweet, transmission oil/antifreeze smell and was getting pretty cloudy, and white in color. OK I thought, HEAD GASKET or cracked block or something? So I took it apart and had the heads milled, cleaned, and pressure tested. No problem. Checked the block deck specs and cylinder walls, no problems. New head set of gaskets. My son and I put everything back last night, very nicely I might add!.... still the same thing. At dinner, feeling a bit dejected, we began to discuss the problem. My wife Diane said could it be "Bad Gas?" I said, "No, I upset about this dilema," I said. "No, I meant the car," my wife replied.

So, here is my question. I left a full tank of gas, premium unleaded in the car from October to March. If I have bad gas or water in the gas would the symptoms be what I am experiencing? Let me know. Thanks,

Steve Scott :confused:

Here in upstate New York, we also put the old cars up from late October to mid- to end of March. I have three old cars (one with 10½:1 compression) and a tractor and have never had a problem concerning bad gas. I fill the tank to the top on the day I store them and off they go the next spring. I've been doing this for over 20 years with no problem. I also store my snowblower from mid-April to end of November the same way. I've never had a problem with the gas deteriorating over that period of time. It's important to fill up the tank to reduce the chances of condensation (water) forming in the tank. I've been told, and have read, that gas starts deteriorating after a couple of months and that may be so, but I've never seen it go bad enough to be noticeable. If it'd make you feel better, put in some gas stabilizer that can be purchased at any auto parts store for a nominal price.

-Bob

Steve,I would drive it some.If it did have a coolant leak the muffler may have been full of coolant.A spark plug will look funny if the cylinder has a leak-and it was that bad.Also the carbon on the piston of the bad cylinder would look different then the rest.If the coolant isn't bubbling in the radiator and it stays full you may be OK.The head gasket itself may have leaked.An experianced eye can usually see this.Did it still have the steel shim gaskets or modern composition?....The coolant could be tested later for CO if there is a problem.Also watch for milky oil.If its still leaking the engine will miss a little when first started after sitting for a week.

Steve,
I also would drive it a bit. Dual systems have one side that has the thermostatic valve. The other side runs cooler particularly for the first several minutes and often will take much longer to vaporize the moisture that collects in the exhaust system. A lot of water can be drawn into the muffler over winter storage. Every time the temperature rises air is driven out of the exhaust system and then replaced with cool humid air when the temp drops. The moisture condenses into liquid and then the cycle begins again. Same thing happens to a empty or partially empty gas tank.

Most definitely drive it for a while and see what happens. Back when I was rebuilding Datson Roadsters, I had one that came up with the white smoke. I knew it was either the head gasket or cracked head. Tore it down and discovered it was the head gasket. Replaced the gasket and it did the same thing. Tore it down the second time but could find nothing. New gasket, reassembled, and still white smoke. Decided to just drive it and see how bad it got. In moving the car around I could hear a sloshing sound and it was not coming from the gas tank. Examination revealed that the muffler was almost 1/2 full of water. Drilled a small hole in the front of the muffler, drained out at least a quart of water, problem solved.

Thanks guys, I will run it for a while and see what happens. In fear of the worse, I have not pushed it and simply allowed it to idle until it got warm. That was the other thing I forgot to tell you all is that this all happens after it warms up, it's fine at first then it gets cloudy. It's strange to think the muffler can fill up with water but now I can see how that could happen. We'll hope for the best and get back to you. Thanks,

Steve

Steve, Did you start the engine several times during the winter and not drive the car.This is bad for any engine and worse for mufflers on a dual exhaust car.I never start my cars unless I drive them for a distance and always put my 57 dual car away with a hot engine and exhaust.If it is anti freeze in the muffler it will take longer to boil off due to its higher boiling point.

No, Gene I kept it in my garage and never started it once. It's funny, this is the second year in a row that the first day out of the box the car doesn't run right. The year before, I had a carb go out on me as I was driving it home from storage about 20 miles from home. I got a mile and a half away from home and it just died! Had to have it towed home! I love her dearly but she can turn on me like a pit bull. I am going to drain the gas (put it in my lawn mower) and get fresh gas just in case and then drive it. I will get back to you what happens. Thanks a lot.

Steve

I know nothing about winter storage, put what if you put the car on jack stands during the winter and cranked and ran it about once a week? This way you could go thru the gears, warm the motor, use the brakes, etc. Just a thought, trying to help.

Open the garage/shop/etc doors first or use an exhaust tube clamped to each tailpipe.

Good luck w/your car.

I have found that its better to not start or run the engine.If the weather is dry a trip of at least 20 miles in cold weather is necessary to get every thing up to full temperature.I have had no problems with my cars.Some are not started for 6 months or so thru the winter.The only preperations that I do 'if I have time' is inflate the tires an extra 10 lbs. over normal,put a pint of MMO in the gas, and pour a 1/2 pint thru the carb. with engine running.Also change oil in fall.I don't fill the gas tank full either.We have enough alcohol in our gas to absorb any water.As long as the car is kept indoors and the garage door is closed any temperature changes are so slow that condensation is not a problem.If car would be stored in an area that is heated at times and allowed to cool with big temp. changes condensation is a problem.The reason that I leave the gas as low as possible is so I can fill-up with fresh in spring.Otherwise if its a car that isn't used early in the year I can end up with a full tank of old gas.I do try to pump the brake pedal a few times once a month on the hydralic brake cars.

On smaller gas engines the manual tells you to "run the motor until it runs out of gas and shuts down" for storage. Why is it good for them and not good for the big motors?

Gator, I think it has more to do with how the engine fuel delivery system is constructed, small engines have either an attached fuel tank and if there is a fuel kine it is a short piece of rubber or neoprene tubing and a simple carb, two cycle engines are even more simple and the lubricatrion is mixed into the fuel before being ingested into the engine, the lube oil will thicken and clog up the carbs and or injectors. I have never seen any documetation suggesting that 4 cycle engines be "run out" of fuel. But to add a fuel stabilization product in small 4 cycle engines gas tanks and run for a short period before storeing for the off season.
Large engines, I assume you mean a vehicle prime mover? these engines have longer and more complex fuel delivery systems that have metallic components that need to be filled with fuel to prevent rust and contamination from condensation, also it is not a good idea to empty the entire fuel delivery system involveing complex carbs and fuel injectors. Did that make sense?

Yes, it did, thanks.

Unlike most cars, my bulldozer sits most of the time. I never used to run the gas out of it, rather I would just park the dozer in the shed and shut him off. Each time that I needed the dozer, "Oliver" would start right up and run fine.....even if he sat for 9 months without running. Not any more! Since this crappy fuel came along 4 or 5 years ago, I had nothing but problems with the bulldozer when starting. Each time that I started "Oliver" up, he would flood out because of the contamination caused by the modern fuel when it is allowed to sit in the float bowl. I rebuilt the carb. twice.........same problem. Finally, I got smart. Each time that I park the bulldozer, I shut the gas off and let "Oliver" run until he runs out of gas. I started doing that several years ago. Now.....he can sit for six months, 9 months or whatever. It makes no difference! I turn the gas on, and he starts right up.........no problems whatsoever! Ya!

So JYD would you recommend doing the same for cars stored over the winter?

A shut off valve could be hidden in the frame w/o any problems.

From my experience, based on the types of gasoline that we have in this area, I would say "yes". If you are going to start up your car periodically then the answer would be no, but for dead storage, I would run the gas out of the carburetor because of the corrosion that can develope around the needle and seat, and in other areas within the carburetor. "Viton" tipped needles are another problem since they tend to deform sitting in today's gasoline. I've had a lot of problems with "Viton" needles, but so far, metal needles have worked just fine. :cool2:

My cars empty the carb. automaticly.It always takes 30 seconds or more of cranking to refill it.I guess that its a built-in feature of the Carter W1.

I think the major difference with the lawnmowers and other small engines is they have gravity fed fuel systems. As the fuel in the carb bowl evaporates more is added from the tank. Eventually all you have is gunk in the float bowl. Oliver may have the same type fuel system. If you shut the fuel off and run the carb empty then little to no gunk forms.

Yes, "Oliver" does have the same type of fuel system and that is one reason why I shut off the fuel after each use and run him dry. Replacing the Viton needle and seat with a metal needle and seat in the updraft carb. was a major help too. :eek:

Would putting a shut off valve in the gas line and running the motor dry to "dead" store have ANY negitives for a motor? I am thinking of my '57 (283) mainly.

Gator, and others,
Once you shut off the motor little to no gas is pumped to the carburetor. Therefore the add gas, evaporate, oxidize to form gum and varnish cycle is broken. Only the gas that is contained in the carburetor float bowl can evaporate and form crud. Now if you run the engine every week or two then you are adding gas the the carb and are danger of forming enough crud to cause problems. It is the constant replenishing of the gas that contributes to the problem. Therefore a shut off on a fuel pump system does not do as much to eliminate the problem as in gravity systems. It might help some but probably not enough to be worth the effort and expense

Thanks for the help.

Hey Steve,

When you replaced the head bolts, did you clean the threads in the block and reapply sealant to the threads?

I just ran into a similiar problem as you with a 348 - but rather than burning the coolant, the head bolts were seeping. Big surprise, just a routine valve adjustment, and found coolant in the cylinder heads. Someone rebuilt the engine and put the bolts in DRY! :eek:

In regards to the fuel quality concerns - I highly recommend the use of STABIL. Follow the directions on the label. Kiss all your stale fuel problems good bye.

I have been using STABIL for 30 years and have had zero fuel system problems.

I was wondering if someone was going to mention "Stabil". Great stuff and use as directed.

I guess we jest didn't get a-round-tuit, thanks BF

Hi Steve
I take it that with a coolent smell in the exhaust pulled the spark plugs and pressure tested the cooling system and and then you will know which cylinder has the problem?