VCCA Home Forums TECHNICAL - 1945 AND EARLIER 1937-1945 Any Asbestos in Sound Deadener?

Hi Guys,
Been a very, very long time since I've been here. Life got in the way and I seemed to keep finding ways to stall working on this 1938 Business Coupe.

I've actually been worried that some members I always enjoyed may no longer be with us so have avoided the site the last while.

I've just swapped a motorcycle for some bodyman's labour so it's finally time to start the frame off on my Coupe!!!!

My Question: The kick panel areas have sound deadener that are checkerboard and soft like a marshmallow. When I pick at it, it has fibers like horsehair. Anyone know if there is asbestos is any of this? Car is Canadian.
Thanks
Tim

Great to see you back. The only asbestos I can think of was in the brake and clutch linings.

Tim I sent you a PM

Thanks guys,
I'll likely treat it as suspicious, especially with it being so strangely flexible for nearly 80 years old. I've learned to test for it and I've found it in many surprising things so will either suit up, leave it alone or most likely let someone else blast it if I can find someone experienced with car bodies.

I have parted out three 41 bodies and am finishing a complete frame-off restoration. I have had a couple nasty sinus infections from what I believe was not taking precautions when doing body disassembly work. I strongly recommend that a good air mask be worn until your initial cleanup is completed.

It is quite common to see and smell rodent waste in first examining an old car that was stored for several years. We all are aware of the terms "barn find," and "junkyard," and "garaged stored." All sorts of animal and insect life have had the opportunity to have inhabited our cars. It took me years to get rid of the urine smell out of my rear seat. You can still see urine stains between the seat back and seat bottom. Just a little over a year ago I finally removed my headliner. It had moth holes in it and a 3 inch area where it appeared some type of rodent had entered and lived. The dust and rodent turds were everywhere. I have a tuna can full of all the debris I have cleaned out of body frames (nesting material, rodent bones, nuts, insect dwellings).

Why wouldn't there be asbestos in sound deadener? Asbestos was commonly used in many household and industrial products. Imagine the drapes in homes, floor tiles, attic insulation with it. Medically and scientifically, we knew little about asbestos nor did we have government or industrial safety regulations to protect us.

I think all initial cleaning should be done outside. I would use a vacuum cleaner, and wear a mask and gloves. Make sure your Tetanus Shot is up-to-date. When things are dust free I disinfect the area. Depending on what your intent is (i.e. get the car running, get the car safe to drive, take the car all apart to restore it), you will use differing cleanup methods. You can go from a vacuuming to using compressed air in a completely disassembled body. You need to listen to your spouse or the voice of common sense. Sometimes, I am not a good listener.

Good luck, Mike

Mike
Well said! I agree with you 100% and expressed my feeling's similar to yours to Tim in my PM to him. Asbestos was used EVERYWHERE in manufacturing up through the mid-70's Without a MSD report nobody knows what is or is not contained in a particular product. Intentional or not it is irresponsible to guess, presume, or advise something is safe without the proper facts. Like you said why wouldn't asbestos be used in a sound deadener? Tim asked a great question, and common sense would make me think asbestos is contained in it. Asbestos is not the only fiber that is carcinogenic, it is just the one we heard the most about. As you pointed out just be safe

I have posted warnings before about rat and mice manure/dried urine found in and around old fabric and upholstery in these vehicles that have been setting up for awhile.

Breathing the "dust" that is stured up from removing these fabrics is a health hazard. The wearing of a breathing apparatus, eye dust proff goggles, gloves are a must. Care must be taken not to breath dust off of clothes worn during such debris removal before laundry. Laundry will remove all contaminates. Washing of tools and disposal of vaccum bags or proper cleaning of vaccum is important.

I recommend useing a fan during removal of debris. Make sure the fan does not blow toward a person or area where it will hurt anything. Exhausting fumes will not last long as exposure to sunlight and elements destroy contaminates. (do not blow out into a garage) Place into plastic sacks all seat material from striping to the springs. Place headliner, carpet, floor insulating material, including rubber mat, into plastic sacks for garbage. Seal the top of the sack with tape.

Care must also be used in sanding such areas. The contaminate may be on the old paint. Care must be used when removing old sanding paint "dust".

Best of luck with your project and above all be carefull.

My company provided Hantavirus kit uses dilute chlorine bleach to kill the virus, & rubber gloves. You may want to wash things down before removing/disturbing mousy nests or droppings! A dust mask will help with asbestos inhalation but won't block a virus.

Asbestos test. Take a few fibers and see if it burns. If it does it is not asbestos.

Thanks guys. Indeed there is a lot of nasty stuff to take precautions against.

^^^Is this test in any book?^^^

If asbestos is suspected it is not advisable to disrupt it and handle ANY fibers. Asbestos was mixed with many products that would burn, that is why it was mixed in to slow any burning down. There is no way the above mentioned "test" can do that unless the asbestos fibers are separated from those products, which would require handling and disruption. Asbestos by itself will not burn, the problem is it is seldom the only product used. So those other products can burn, just leaving only the asbestos behind, and we all can see the problem created now. I would not advise anyone to use this "test"

There really is no true way that any of us can perform any test for asbestos without exposing ourselves or others to contamination by not disturbing the fibers without causing contamination to ourselves, the area we are working in, our clothing and so on. I cannot stress enough that minimum disruption is the best way deal with any suspected substance, also keep in mind asbestos was the not the only carcinogen used manufacturing back then, it is just the one with the most publicity because it's use was abundant and everywhere and almost everything. The problem is not everyone is susceptible to asbestosis, and only a few fibers can cause a problem in those who are. In the early 80's I was on a renovation project in Tower One of the World Trade Center.On the original construction asbestos was used in the first 27 floors of Tower One before the problem became known, and it's use was banned. It was encapsulated with a wax type substance. This encapsulated areas were disturbed when I was there. I have had no problems and have been tested several times. My wife however is a homemaker never worked outside of our home and was diagnosed with asbestosis five years ago and had to have a lobe from one of her lungs. They feel she was exposed to asbestos from washing my clothes. I learned a lot more then I wanted to about asbestos.

A friend of mine who was an automotive upholsterer (now retired) would pour hot wax over any of the loose and dusty insulation to keep the dust down when he was removing it, this way it scrape out as one blob with minimum dust particles flying around.

In the 1962 information I see the undercoating the factory sprayed under the rear wheel wells is asphalt based asbestos.
1949 was the first to have some spray under coating.

You guys now have me concerned about the sound insulation. With no protection, I've removed and handled a lot of it in two cars. The car I am currently driving still has some hanging down from the roof and much is exposed throughout the car. It comes apart very easily when you touch it and sounds like the same stuff that Tim mentioned in his original post. So, today I went to an environmental company that deals with mold and asbestos and other nasty substances. I took a sample of the sound insulation and also a sample of a cardboard looking material that was adhered to the floorboard. They are going to send them to a lab in Phoenix and check for asbestos. I may have the results back by the end of the week and I will post what they found.

Also, right or wrong, with gloves and a respirator, I took a small piece of the sound insulation outside and set it on fire. It flamed for a while and then burned like a cigarette until it was ashes. That was somewhat encouraging, but I will let the lab decide for sure.

As mentioned by John, asbestos may not be the only carcinogen used, but it's absence would sure make me feel better.

The results from the lab test for asbestos are back and neither the black sound insulation nor the brown floorboard insulation contained asbestos. The samples were from a 36 chevy.

Analysis by Polarized Light Microscopy

Black Sound Insulation contained:
65% cellulose fiber
30% gypsum quartz binder/filler
5% synthetic fiber

Brown Floorboard Insulation contained:
95% cellulose fiber
5% gypsum quartz binder/filler

Hopefully none of these substances are harmful.