VCCA Home Forums GENERAL DISCUSSION General Discussions Warning: Ethanol mixtures must be banned from gas!

Her are the latest news from UK as to ethanol: https://www.hemmings.com/blog/2018/...nd-as-it-considers-introducing-e10-fuel/

I just noticed this thread and I’m amazed at those who think there’s no issue with ethanol added fuel. Hate to tell you the obvious but even our government who demands we use it, knows it. Simple evidence: FAA does not allow ethanol added fuels in aircraft and recommends, as it cannot control, that no ethanol type fuel is used in any experimental or home built aircraft. So the question is why? Ok, we can say it attracts water and will cause a carb icing problem at higher altitudes but that’s not really an issue for some sport and home built aircraft. Our WWII fighters used water injection to increase compression and performance so I doubt it’s thefreezing issue the FAA is worried about.
I live right on the coast up here in New England, one of the largest ocean fishing and boating areas in North America. You won’t find one drop of ethanol fuel available at any dock nor will the yards pump any ethanol fuel into any boat, even brand new, fuel injected boats!
So why is ethanol not allowed in planes or boats. Something Solan said and was demeaned for. SAFETY, plain and simple. As it is, land based boats that are trailered to launching ramps and used by the average recreational boater, are fueled up at the normal automobile gas station. Ask the Harbor masters or the coast guard commanders what they spend their weekends doing..........Towing in boats that won’t run. Also, any boat with a fiberglass tank, and there are many, cannot take the ethanol fuels as it dissolves the fiberglass depositing fiberglass particles into the carburetors and clogging jets.

As far as ethanol fuel running hotter, I learned this first hand as my son was a high ranked amateur motor cross rider. A high octane, 100% gasoline fuel always allowed us to compete at a higher level because engine temps were always about 35-40 degrees cooler which allowed for the motors keeping just a little more compression than guys running the ethanol fuel. This was measured with a infrared thermometer gun so those readings are what I know to be fact.

But hey, no problems with ethanol right? Just because you haven’t seen it, don’t assume that they don’t exist. If this is your outlook on life, then I can only believe that there are many other things that you don’t believe are going on, that are so I can understand why you think ethanol is so trivial.


Our government wants us to believe that they are concerned about our planet and that ethanol based fuels are not as pollutant as 100% gas fuel yet the ethanol is actually a higher pollutant than the gas itself. Why don’t we take that corn and make biodiesel out of the corn oil? Why has the government forced us into DEF liquids, synthetic urea, and now limited the amount of biodiesel a new Diesel engine can run to B15? A Diesel engine running on 100% bio fuel mainly produces water as an emission and the original Diesel engine, when first shown at the NY worlds fair by Rudolph Diesel, was run on 100% peanut oil. So if the world was concerned about our planet, why would it want to limit the cleaner alternative to our trucking industry? Why aren’t modern diesel pickups able to run on B100 like my 85 diesel blazer is? Oh wait, I go to the local farmer who buys used cooking oil from restaurants and coverts it to clean bio and charges me $2.10 a gal. Humm, maybe that’s one reason?????
Here’s a probable explanation of the whole ethanol/DEF fuel thing. A drug dealer buys $1 million worth of cocaine and wants to sell it, realizes he has lots of buyers, has paid off officials so he’s protected from prosecution or any real competition and wants a way to make even larger profits to pay for those protections and lack of competition. So they buy some cornstarch (there’s that corn again) or talc, and simply cut the product to increase the total amount of product. (I.e., 1000 bushels replaced 66 barrels of imported oil). If anyone remembers, this very thing was happening and many were dying because the cutting agents were more toxic than the cocaine itself. Sound familiar? And by the way, cutting the amount of pure product, increasing the total with a “filler”, never LOWERED the selling price. So to convince the public that this simple way of increasing profits while decreasing the amount of main ingredient is to simply BS the public and tell them it’s for the benefit of the environment. Bang, and now 60% of the public believes them!

How many of you either know or could easily find out, where non-ethanol gasoline is sold and stop and fill up on that?

Or do you conveniently/merely pull up to the 10% ethanol pump and fill up, then thereafter, getting on the computer and squaw negatively about ethanol.

Talking about hyprocrocy!

I's say the ethanol bashers have little conviction if they are reluctant to spend a few cents more to back up what they say. And I'm speaking about our old Chevrolets too.

Oh yeah, yesterday I had a flat tire. Pulled the stinkin ethanol protrusion out and plugged the hole. Danged ethanol!

Just saying,

Charlie

pure-gas.org is the website. They are not 100% accurate as stations are added daily and maybe some no longer sell non-ethanol fuel. I know around here we never had any until Buc-ees started with one station a few years ago. There are also airports and marinas that have non-ethanol gasoline but may not sell to the general public.

I use non-ethanol gas in my old Chevys when I can and for sure in my lawn mowers, chain saws, etc even if it is nearly $ 1 per gallon more expensive. They are not compatible with ethanol or the water it attracts. I have already had to replace hundreds of $$$$ in equipment and parts to the destruction. A few more $$$$ is cheap compared to the potential damages.

Chipper,

I believe you.

Still I think you're one of the exceptions to the rule of cheapest gas for the fillup on the old car. After all, who's gonna pay $3.75 a gallon (reg) when they can get 10% ethonal for $2.75? Nobody. Except you so far.

Best,

Charlie

BTW: I have been through Texas. Nary a blade of grass did I see. So what's with the claim on the lawnmower destruction?

i have a 60 gal fuel tank in my box trailer. i go to the local airport for Aviation gas that runs a buck or so more than the ethanol gas at the local filling stations. i have a couple corvettes, chainsaws, weedeaters etc that hate ethanol and i feed them the av gas. the airport won't fill the tanks of a car or truck but will fill tanks, even 5 gal common metal tanks. i'd rather eat more sweet corn and see the demise of ethanol in our gasolines. hell, for that matter, i'd love to see lead added again to gasolines. our antique(1940's) Wayne gas pump, with leather seals for piston "rings" seized after pumping about 100 gals of lead free gas back in the 90's. i replaced the pump motor with a late model pump that tolerates the lead free gas. so far the ethanol hasn't damaged the newer pump. mike

Here in Florida it is called red gas..
It is not allowed to be used in vehicles on public roads becuse it does not have road tax attached
It is only allowed to be used in such as boats or farm vehicles.
It is cheaper because it does not have road tax attached per gallon but the vendors charge a premium for it..
Hence why it is not allowed on vehicles used for public roads.
But locations are few and far between.
Usually they are located near the coastline where off road(Boats) are located.

Small engine manufactures for say two stroke engines have stated in the warranty if ethanol is above 10% they will void the warranty.

My wife and I ride our HD motorcycle all over the US by taking bike vacations. One of our favorite areas to ride is the Pigeon forge area of TN. There are gas stations there that sell 100% gas and it was only about .30 more than it’s ethanol counterpart. My Harley ran so much better and cooler on that gas that I made sure I filled up before I put it back on the truck for the ride home. Even on a stock 08’ road king, the difference is huge and any HD rider who’s run the pure gas will tell you that.

Chistech,

I see that you believe the non-ethanol makes your HD run better and cooler. Maybe, but those are relative terms. Not facts. You may think it does and so that is proof enough but may not convincing to others.

How much cooler? Is the engine liquid cooled or ambient air cooled? Does it have a temperture gauge? Does either fuel cause it to exceed recommended range?

How much better? Does it miss on ethanol? Does it sound louder on non-ethanol? Just what does better mean?.

I think my old 41 runs better after an oil change. It doesn't. Just my self fulfilled prophecy. Nothing more.

Best,

Charlie

Charlie,
If you would look up the BTU content of a gallon of gasoline with and without ethanol you might just find something. You can search the web for GGE (gasoline gallon equivalent) for the comparable amount of various blended fuels with pure gasoline. Just remember that there are differences in gasoline blends between regions of the country and seasons. Also differences between the production of each refinery. True scientifically based comparisons require rigorous attention to details.

I agree for seasons,
There is a winter gas and summer gas.
In the winter season refineries add butane to provide more spark for cold weather starts..
In the summer they don't.

What I have been told the price per gallon per season is not based on summer is here and school is out and families travel more. But that many refineries are not geared to switch from winter gas to summer gas, So they shut down.
So in the summer less refineries means less gas and price goes up.. Even though production costs go down because no butane is added, But there is less gas available

Charlie,
You assume everyone has their head in the clouds and everyone has no real experience. How do I know my HD runs better and cooler. How about this: it is an 08’. A 08’ HD has an automatic cutout of the rear cylinder when the head temperature reaches a specific temperature. I do not know that temperature, don’t care to know it either. What I do know is when that temperature is reached, most commonly when sitting in traffic, the bike will start idling very roughly because only the front cylinder is firing. It is air cooled and the rear cylinder gets less air flow and virtually none in traffic so HD put this program into the ignition system. So, how do I know the difference? You believe I’m just thinking it. Truth is, I don’t ever remember the bike going into the single cylinder ignition cycle. And if you’ve never been to pigeon forge, then you don’t have any idea how much stop and go traffic there can be in 80-90+ temperature. So I don’t think my bike ran cooler, it DID run cooler. Cooler cylinders, especially on an air cooled motor means better compression, which means better power and better running up in the TN mountains. Don’t need a doctorate to know that.

"Truth is, I don’t ever remember the bike going into the single cylinder ignition cycle."

Chistech,

You wrote the above sentence. I didn't.

I'm just saying that many tines ethanol gets a bad rap when there is Truth is, I don’t ever remember the bike going into the single cylinder ignition cycle.not a scintilla of evidence in support the claim. While your "evidence" may be all you need to convince yourself that ethanol would run rough owing to the rear cylinder would cut out by design there is no evidence that it ever has. By your own statements you have used ethanol but for the gallon or two you got in TN. Your own experience, as described by you, and with any evidence to support it merely means that you think ethanol makes your bike cut out. In the instant case, there you have presented no proof or experience of that. Seems merely a belief without solid foundation in fact.

I hope you take my post as intended. That is, I seek after knowledge concerning the negative effects of ethanol, not to be offensive,, bullying, condescending, hardheaded or argumentative in any way. Merely curious, nothing more.

I appreciate your posts and your honesty. I don't ride owing to age and longstanding missus disapproval. I wish I could . There is no sweeter sound than the rumble of a HD. I have friends with HDs. They have never even offered to give me a ride. I wonder why?

Best wishes and be careful whilst riding your HD. Four wheeler drivers look both ways before pulling out but many times they are checking for other four wheelers not motorcycles.

Best wishes,

Charlie

BTW: Maybe you have never ridden your HD whilst the ambient temperature was hot enough for the cut-out to work up there in MA. With or without the 10% ethanol. You'd have to try it both ways to have firm scientific evidence that the ethanol was the culprit that kicked in the cut-out. More trouble than it's worth probably.

BTW2: Be happy the missus shares your riding experience. Many merely complain about the hubby's hobby without ever trying to understand and enjoy it with him.

Charlie,
The bike always goes into the single cylinder limp mode in traffic and it was doing exactly that down in pigeon forge until I found that station right outside Cherokee National forest selling the 100% gas. From there I can't remember it ever going back into limp mode the rest of the week. Nor did it go into limp mode when I brought it home until that full tank of 100% gasoline was replaced with our NE ethanol laced gas. The bike will vibrate pretty heavily, even though it's rubber mounted, when it's in limp mode and while I cannot say it never did it again, I don't remember it doing it the whole rest of that trip. If it did it the same as usual, I would have remembered and known that the 100% gas didn't help. It did and I will always look for 100% anywhere I ride. There is a huge difference. My bike is also fuel injected and has always started over crappy often making a hard mechanical sound from the starter like it's off time but its not. That issue also goes away with the 100% gas and the bike starts like a champ without ever making that hard mechanical, kick back sound it makes with the ethanol gas.

My assessment of ethanol is that for an average modern car designed for it, it doesn't bother it. My 14' accord eats it all day long with no issues. But, a fuel picky engine or a vehicle not designed for it will have issues. It is for those issues that the FAA and most marine yards do not allow it to be used or sold off the property.

Its actually my wife who prefers to ride over me. The reason I say that is she prefers to be a passenger and it puts all the responsibility of the day's riding on me. Not only do I watch my own riding and the road conditions under the bike, I have to watch for fools on their phones coming from the sides, front, and behind. One time I actually saw a car coming up from behind too fast to stop at the light I was sitting at so I literally revved the bike and dropped the clutch to pull to the side, almost losing the wife off the back. The car slammed into the car I was sitting behind! Luckily we were close to an entrance to a shop and there was a break in the curb so I could pull out of the way of that car. So for a rider/driver of the motorcycle with my wife on back, it's not as enjoyable as it would be with just myself on. I would only have to worry about myself, only have half the weight on the bike in the case of having to make a maneuver to get out of trouble, and less weight to stop. All that would help lessen the pressure of responsibility of riding two up.

Chistech,

That was well said. To me, I think you explained your personal experience with ethanol convincingly. While is is not a scientific analysis, it is good enough for me.

Thanks for being patient with me.

I'm thankful you were able and sharp enough to readily recognize the danger and to get out of the way of the car that was coming up fast behind you. If you hadn't had the missus on board I wouldn't have cared as much. Yes, I would.

My best wishes to you and the missus. She sounds like a jewel and definitely a keeper, for sure.

Hope to meet you someday. Maybe you'll give me a ride on the back of your HD, I can only hope.

Best,

Charlie

I’d give you a ride but somebody might take a picture of two guys on a bike together and post it to this forum!????

I'd like to see that picture, especially if one of you impersonate Peter Fonda and the other Jack Nicholson.

Cheers, Dean

&

"when it comes to E 10 or more, don't buy it for your older vehicles, specially when E 5 already is making storage and driving dangerous and unsafe.

An article about ethanol and the trouble it makes in a future will arrive in G&D this year.

I hope the users here can write about their experiences with ethanol mixes in the gas and possible solutions to avoid destroying our hobby cars and small machinery"

Note: Do not read the following. It has been said before. It is right in every way (according to me) and will likely stir up your emotions which may or may not be controllable. It will be long, boring and a waste of your time. So just don't. Please. (I hope this warning is simple enough for any of you. Do too!)

The above was posted by Solan.

Consider these questions:

a. How does using E-5 make storage and driving dangerous and unsafe? Please back up your response with factual evidence not mere opinion and smoke and mirrors.

b. How does using ethanol destroy our hobby cars and small machinery? Asking users to write about their experience is eliciting mere perceived experience without the necessary facts to support falsehood embracement. Scientific proof is warranted here.

c. I can't wait for the article to appear in G&D about the trouble ethanol makes for our future or something like that. I do hope the editors will not accept an article that is not based on facts and appropriate supporting evidence. Again, scientific evidence should be the basis for any such article. Don't print what you think, print what you know and can back it up with facts.

Proving ethanol is dangerous, destructive and unsafe is a insurmountable hill. As John Wayne often said, "That'll be the day."

We all should be smarter than to believe all this unsupported negative nonsense about the ills of ethanol. I have used it without any negative side effects in my 41 coupe for many years now. Same experience with my generators, pressure washer and lawn equipment also. I haven't experienced any negative effects that I can prove are the results of using ethanol. Can any of you point to something that has negatively affected your old car owing solely to ethanol. Nope. I thought so.

The reason this thread has so many visitors is that it is hard to prove a negative. Ethanol doesn't hurt a dang thing but many want to believe it does. Wistful thinking. It actually works magnificently and helps us maintain a better environment.

Scare tactics don't work on me. Get on board and stop bashing something by mere acceptance of false claims. No matter where they arise.

Charlie

Disclosure: I have no interest in the corn industry but I sure do like Uncle Ed. I have no interest in the gasoline industry other than buying their fine products, especially the ethanol blended ones.

BTW: When you bash ethanol, you may want to do it in private with someone as gullible as yourself. Any chemist or other knowledgable person (such as myself) overhearing your claims may think less of your book learning and education level. When you have no basis for your opinion other than what you read or hear such opinion is meaningless except to you.

BTW: This is likely to PO some of you. That was not my intent. Nontheless, I'm sorry. Am too!

HaHa, good points Charlie! I do think ethanol can be bad for some older rubber products such as old fuel pump diaphragms, but they do make ethanol resistant ones for our old cars. The fuel pump diaphragm is the only rubber product that was original equipment in the fuel system
on vintage Chevrolets, although, some replacement needle valves may have a rubber tip. ethanol is an excellent cleaning product and if your fuel system is dirty it may loosen up varnish or rust and plug the fuel filter or worse the carburetor jets. I use it in all of my vehicles and have for years, one exception is my '33 coupe as the gas tank is full of rust and varnish and it will plug the fuel filter on that. I know I should clean the tank but can get by as long as I put straight gas in it. BTW, I like you too Charlie!

All modern gas will attack old rubber parts.

Charlie - if you ARE a chemist, you should know the byproducts of the burning of ethanol; which is why I refer to it as deathanol. Twenty five years from now, our children, and grandchildren will curse us for using it.

Oh, and I personally did mileage tests on FUEL INJECTED vehicles about 15 years ago (no, I have not repeated the tests). Two different vehicles, one got 14 percent WORSE fuel economy on E-10, and other 15 percent WORSE fuel economy on E-10. These were both 1000 mile tests. Interestingly (at least to me), I can tune the carbs to lose only about 8 percent on E-10. And maybe the newer fuel injection systems do better. I do know that my 2014 vehicle gets significantly worse fuel economy than my 1968, and has a significantly less powerful engine.

The country would be much better off just writing welfare checks to the farmers, and letting them sell corn for food!

But as long as we have politicians we will have land banks, commodities, and ethanol.

Jon

Charlie---

After reading this entire thread again, I have come to the conclusion that you like and use ethanol laced gasoline. That is your choice and I wish you well with it. Some people feel the opposite. That is their choice. Apparently you feel because you disagree with the folks who don't like ethanol laced gas you are permitted to call them names, infer they are ignorant, and that they can't provide factual reasons to you that ethanol gas is not the best thing since sliced bread.

So now I refer you to the Forum rules: https://vccachat.org/ubbthreads.php/ubb/boardrules/v/1.html

In particular the paragraph regarding Bullying--

This thread is 10 pages long. A good portion of those pages are inflammatory and demeaning remarks made by you aimed at the folks that support the use of NON-ethanol gas. And just because you apologize at the end of an inflammatory and demeaning statement doesn't make it go away.

I'm asking that you tone down the rhetoric so as not to be so inflammatory and demeaning to our other members.
Thank you for your cooperation.

Ken,

I attacked no one. The only person I mentioned by name was John Wayne and that was for quote only and has nothing to do with his use of ethanol, his knowledge about ethanol or his acting ability..

It seems to me that your post may be construed and intended to bully me. If not then I don't have a clue what you're being so defensive about. In the post I merely asked for factual evidence backing up claims against the use of ethanol. Nothing more and certainly no bullying was intended. Seems to me my intent was crystal clear through the post.

A read through my post will reveal mere pleadings for facts based on scientific evidence. Nothing more. I did chide those who, without a sherd of evidence make claims about negative effects of ethanol. Perhaps that was going too far. On hind sight, I regret it. I'm sorry. Yet, I did not name anyone nor infer that I was thinking of anyone in particular.

It seems to me that when one doesn't have clear and convincing proof in support for their position they may, when challenged, see as their only way out is blaming the author/speaker for their untenable position.

It seems that you have now got all over me for vacuous reasons. . Please school your feelings.

In my lead-in for my former post (giving rise to you post naming me), was this note: Did you miss it? It read: "Do not read the following. It has been said before. It is right in every way (according to me) and will likely stir up your emotions which may or may not be controllable. It will be long, boring and a waste of your time. So just don't. Please. (I hope this warning is simple enough for any of you. Do too!) I agree that such a statement would be inadequate to resolve any intended bullying.

There is a simple solution here: If you are a moderator then scrap my post. If you are not a moderator then report me to a moderator and ask that my post be scraped. Your call. No need to take me to the wood shed over your dislike for me or my post. It would appear that the problem may be based on the former rather than the latter. I hope not.

I wish i didn't have to suffer the instant bullying as clearly defined in the rules. Talk about inflammatory and demeaning... I'm not upset though; merely deeply saddened and disappointed that my post could have been taken so far out of context and intent. Mercy!

I wish we could get along better. I will try.

Best wishes for better times and better understanding on different opinions on issues,

Charlie

BTW: Please note that there is not a smidgen of bullying, inflammatory or demeaning of anyone in my reply to your post. Nor is there any intent to do so. Even if some is precieved then please take my heartfelt apology.

I thank we are bordering on stepping on toes and before it gets out of hand I think I will lock this thread. So-be-it.