VCCA Home Forums TECHNICAL - 1945 AND EARLIER 1933-1936 All of a sudden no spark

I was out driving the other day, about hour and a half the 36 ran and drove like new. Nice and smooth, I turned down my street and it sputtered a little bit. I thought to myself hummm what the heck was that?? I went to turn in the drive way all of a sudden it just died out and would not restart.
I opened the hood and checked to see if I could find anything out of the norm. I checked to see if I was getting gas that checked out ok then I decided to check if I had spark, and there was nothing. so I had a spare set of points and condenser and new plug wires put them in and still no spark.
I was thinking maybe the coil as it seems to be the original one.
Any Ideas ???

I would say half coil and half some broken wire,connection some place. If you have a spare coil I would hook it up to test. Run a "power" wire from the battery to the coil, lead to the distributor and cap to coil wire and see if it starts. Seeing it is not connected to the ign. switch it will be necessary to kill the engine with the clutch.

How have you been...havn't talked to you for a long time.

Check your electrolock as well.

Hello Gene & Skip, All is going ok over on this end. hope its better for the both of you.
I did what you suggested , but with the same results. I bypassed the electrolock & put a different used coil on that I got from Gene a few years back. The only thing I got accomplished was wearing down the battery. I checked the other wires and all looks good as it should. I can't for the life of me figure what the heck is going on. I don't understand, it was running great before this happened. I am not sure what to check for next

Did you check the rotor?Also check the center of the distributor cap where the rotor makes contact.

Ken,

You may get some interesting pyrotechnics if you connect power from the battery positive post to the lead between the distributor and coil as suggested. My understanding of how point ignitions work is that the points interrupt the coil ground and at the instant the ground is interrupted a high voltage is induced in the secondary coil winding that gets delivered to the appropriate spark plug. I don't think I'd touch a 6 volt + wire to that coil to distributor - wire.

By the way, how did that transmission I sent you a few years ago work out for you?

I would turn on the ignition switch and probe along with a test light to see what has and has not power.

I recently found that no 'juice' was getting to the coil of my '27. The culprit ended up being corroded electrical connections on the ignition switch. After cleaning up the connections, 6V showed up at the coil and it started right up.

From your description, I'd suspect a frayed wire in the ignition circuit that finally broke.

Let us know what you find.

Cheers, Dean

Check for 6 volts at the coil, if you have power there it is either the coil, the coil to distributor wire, the points/condenser, or something grounded in the distributor that should not be. AS has been suggested check with a test light or volt/Ohm meter and see what has power or what is grounded.

Happened to my '31 last year. Pin sheared on distributor shaft. Forgot to turn the grease cup to lubricate.

When my distributor pin sheared a few years ago, it sounded like a gun shot went off!! I suppose that it could happen quietly, but it sure didn't for me.

Thanks for all of your suggestions.
Question, how can you tell if the Distributor pin is sheared off? What and how do you check for that?

Bill,

The pin shearing was a coincidence. There was nothing wrong with your hearing. I just missed you is all (the whole dang car, that is). If you don't take down that stinkin Fleetline banner soon, I may become crazy enouth to take make another attempt. I have a better scope now.

You gonna be at Hershey this year?

Just kidding about the hearing a shot thing.


Charlie

Charlie…you gonna have those free apples at Hershey again this year!? Billu38

I plan on stopping in Winchester and getting a case or two. If so, you can have one (apple). They will already have been picked over 9 days by the time I get to Hershey on Tuesday so come by early.

Charlie

BTW: I am praying for rain for every day of Hershey. That way everything will be normal and no one will be disappointed. Just business as usual. Always bring rain gear. You'll need it more likely than not. Some things never change.

Thank You who all replied trying to help me out, even Charlie. The problem has been fixed. it was a simple little thing. I remember reading a post on here a few years back about a condensers. so I thought ill just go down to my local NAPPA and pick up new ignition parts, they did not have any of it in stock except the condenser, so I purchased it, and ordered the rest . I came home took out the old one put the new condenser in and it started up instantly. So the spare condenser wasn't any good either, and it was new spare parts, go figure. I am just glad all this happened in my driveway instead of on the road somewhere. Thanks again, Ken

Just a heads up to anyone else with a need for an emergency condenser. Almost any automotive condenser will work to get you home if you can wire it in.

Condensers can have a limited "shelf life" so new doesn't always mean good.The 1936 condenser fits 1934 through 1975 6 Cyl. and 1955-56 8Cyl.or when ever the went to HEI. The 1957 and up 8 Cyl can be used but the lead wire is longer.
I still keep a spare in all my cars. Had one go-out on the road several years ago.

Condenser internal insulation dries out and burns leaving a carbon track "short" and become ineffective.
Tony

As stated above, condensers have a limited shelf life and even new condensers will go bad. If you carry a spare condenser in your car, it is always a good idea to replace it with a new condenser from time to time because of the limited shelf life.

Any way to test them or do they fail under use?

Dave39MD,

As often happens my experience is the opposite of the "Experts". My '36 pickup, restored in the early 1970s, has the same condenser I put in back in then and has about 11,000 miles on it. I also have a couple of restored very early Bultaco off road race bikes with point ignitions and they also are on decades old condensors.

The Bultacos don't get ridden much any more but the condensors have not "dried out" as suggested. Both those bikes still fire up with 1 or 2 kicks.

If you're interested, there is a Delco point set that fits Delco distributors from the 1920s up to 1962. It's not listed in any parts books for the older applications but it's a drop in replacement and much improved over the primitive 2-piece point sets and is dirt cheap on ebay.

While it is true a condenser can last 50 years I would compare it to a person 25 years old has much less of a chance of passing away than a person that is 75 years old. When I am driving 500 miles from home I don't like to take chances.

I totally agree with Gene!

I had a box of new old stock condensers (probably around 20 or so in the box) that were about 60 years old and I tested them all with my condenser tester. Each one was leaking! Sure, they could still probaby be used but when they leak they are defective. I also had a batch of Delco-Remy D-207 condensers that I got from a local Chevrolet dealer back in the early 1980's. I tested each one and they were all leaking. Not good.

Why risk a breakdown on the road miles from home? Install a brand new condenser......and if you have a way to test the new condenser, test it before installation! I test every new condenser that I use when installing them on rebuilt distributors.

There is no way (that I know of) of knowing when a condenser will fail and not many have a condenser (capacitor) tester to get any sort of indication.
Tony

JD,

Can you explain what is inside a condensor that actually "leaks"? Is it something that the eye can see or is it only detectable with an instrument? I have seen coils leak oil. Is it something like that?

Is it a problem more prevalent in condensors manufactured in ancient times and solved by more modern manufacturing processes? If the problem has been solved by more recent manufacturing processes, finding a more recently made one would be tha answer because it's pretty easy to adapt a condensor intended for one application into another application. In fact it may be a drop in substitution like the 1-piece Delco point set that I found drops right into the ancient distributors.

Is a condensor that tests bad guaranteed to actually affect engine performance?

I ask this for 2 reasons. The first is personal experience of never having a condensor fail. The second is that there can be some tiny performance differnce between a just out of the box electrical component and one that has been used a tiny bit. An example of that can be seen on the Bonneville salt flats.

The wind there generally blows from west to east. So,to set a record a vehicle has to run up the course (downwind) and back (upwind) within a 1 hour period. If a 1 way run qualifies for a return run to set a record, before making the return run spark plugs run for only a few miles are often replaced with new ones, because it may take only a fraction of a MPH to set a record and supposedly new plugs can provide a tiny edge over slightly used ones. That difference, while supposedly real, would never be felt in ordinary driving.

When I first started racing Bultaco off road motorcycles on the Southern California desert in the 1960s they still had point ignitions, as did the other race bikes (Husky, Greeves, CZ, Maico, KTM, etc, etc). Being an inquisitive youngster then I asked a lot of questions about maintenance, 2-stroke jetting, suspension modification, etc. What I was told about ignition maintenance was to check the point gap after each race because the Spanish Femsa points had rubbing blocks that wore quickly affecting point gap and, thus, timing also but to not worry about the condensor as they seemed to last forever.

I still have 2 of those ancient Bultacos, restored now, and the spark is so hot that even turning the magneto flywheel by hand produces a blue spark. It's like turning an electronic ignition distributor shaft by hand to bench test the electronic components and getting a spsrk, truly amazing.

First a condenser usually fails when hot.
Considering the price of a condenser it is more practicle to replace it rather than test it.

Condensers are usually two long strips of aluminum foil about an inch wide sandwiched between layers of waxed paper, rolled up and placed in a metal case. One plate is connected to the case and the other to a lead wire that goes to the distributor points.

A condenser stores electric power just like a battery. When it can no longer store power (a small amount of continuous current is flowing)the condenser is considered to be "leaking". If there is any leaking at all the condenser should be replaced. Old condensers can also lose their capacitance, which means they no longer have their correct microfarad value.

I have never had a condenser fail on a car either, but since they do have a "shelf life" I test each condenser before it is installed. Many of us have heard in the past about someone installing a new condenser on a distributor and found that there was no spark only to learn that the new condenser was defective.

Condensers can be tested with an Ohm meter or with a regular condenser tester, so I always suggest testing a condenser before it is installed if the car owner has the means to test a condenser. If neither piece of equipment is available then a new condenser can be installed without testing it first.

JD,

Thanks so much for explaining that. One of my sons is an electrical engineer. Next time he comes to visit I'll ask him to bring whatever instrument he uses to test what he calls capacitors and show me how to use it.

I still have a few NOS Bultaco condensors made in the 1960s. It will be interesting to see how they test.

In the meantime I'm going to Goggle "How to test a condensor".

Thanks again!

There is no shortage of instructions on condensor testing. Here's one: mgaguru.com/mgtech/ignition/ig129.htm

Some of the tests are on "ohms" scale there should be no circuit and as a result the capacitance will be severely reduced or non existant.
Tony

Here's one for you. I had a problem 20 years ago in a 50 chevy. Every time I made a left turn the engine would cut-out; die dead as a door nail. I would wait a minute and the car would start and run perfectly until I made another left turn and then it would die again. Right turns didn't matter just the lefts. After a week of checking, testing, and head scratching I finally discovered the ignition coil had leaked some of the oil (probably PCB,s) and when I made a left turn the oil would slosh to the outside and the coil would short internally. Sitting flat it worked and tested fine. Now I wish I put it in my trophy case instead of throwing the darn thing away

So has anyone truly figured this out. I am very intrigued and interested least to say.

The problem in diagnosing an electrical problem is several different failures can cause a given situation. For example loss of spark at the plugs can be due to faulty: condenser, points, ignition switch, coil, wire connection, etc. Determining which one can seem to be like a dog chasing its tail. The process helps to stave off dementia.