VCCA Home Forums TECHNICAL - 1945 AND EARLIER 1937-1945 1941 216 dipper/trough tool

I need to know the correct height of the tool used to measure the oil trough depth so the machine shop I am having my 41 engine rebuilt by can make up the tool.




I also need to know the correct dipper height so they can calibrate that onto the tool. If anyone has the pattern for the tool that checks the oil nozzle height would they please post it. Fortunately, I have the tool for aiming the nozzles Thanks, Mike

P.S. I seem to remember that G&D did an article on the tools and the proper procedures? Does anyone remember what issue that was. I looked pretty carefully through the last 2 years of G&D, but could not find it???

Fig. 38 Checking Oil Trough Depth = 3 13/16"

Fig. 36 Checking Connecting Rod Dipper Height = 4"

These dimensions are taken from Kent Moore Tool J-1646-A

dtm

Thanks Guys!!! The machine shop should be able to duplicate the tool. Good luck, Mike

P.S. Any additional info is appreciated. I did have Gene's, and Mr. Mack's advice on using grease to fill the troughs and then measuring 17/64" or 0.265625" from the bottom of the trough. This is done with the gasket on the oil pan

The 6th edition of the Motors Factory Shop Manual has this in the Chevrolet chapter:

It seems we now have three very different measurement specifications for the dippers and related hardware. Which one is correct?

ree38's numbers
I agree with Old216, Toolmans 'numbers are for a tool that is used on a 235 cu. in. truck engine (J-1646). At this point I think I should go with Hayree38's numbers from the Motors Factory Shop Manual. I leave for the machine shop at 10:00 a.m. Eastern Time so if anyone else can check for me please do so. Thanks, Mike

P.S. According to the 41 Shop Manual the correct tool for a 216 engine is J-969-2.

I agree. The J-1646-A is a Kent Moore Gauge that is apparently used with 235 engines. Disregard the dimensions that I listed.

dtm

The machine shop will follow the 6th edition of the Motors Factory Shop Manual's recommendations unless I tell them otherwise. Those able to confirm the heights recommended there or know of a different set of recommendations please let me know. Thanks all, Mike Buller

Mike - My 1942 Motors Maual agrees with Hayrees measurements. FYI I have completely rebuilt my '40 216 at least four times and have never given any thought to dipper depth/nozzle alignment and have never had any rod problems. I grew up in the war/post war era and saw many of the 216s worked on and do not remember anybody doing anything other than deshimming or putting new babbited rods in.

If I understand this correctly, the lip of the dipper trough is 3 13/16" down from the block edge and the dipper extends down 4". That means the dipper extends 3/16" below the top of the trough. That seems kind of shallow to me.

After building a gauge to measure dipper height, nozzle height and the height of the center of the trough it appears that the numbers given from the 6th edition of the Motors Factory Shop Manual are incorrect and should not be used. The correct numbers are all 3 & 13/16" not 4 & 13/16" as they stated in the above postings reported by Hayree38 and Mike Deeter. Thanks, Mike

P.S. I am thinking of renting the gauges from Chevs of the 40's just to confirm the correct measurements.

Note that the dipper trough height is different for a 216 and 235.

So Gene are you assuming that the numbers in the 6th edition of the Motors Factory Shop Manual are for a 235 engine and that Hayree38 and Mike Deeter were confusing engines? Thanks, Mike

P.S. Still wondering what the true numbers are for the 216?

I don't intend to criticize anyone but think this discussion has gotten too complicated. If the object is to have the dipper dip be 1/16" to 1/8" into the oil in a given trough there is a really easy way to insure it.

With the block upside down and piston/rod at the bottom of its travel measure from a straight edge resting on the bottom of the dipper to edge of block. Measure both sides add them together and divide by 2. That is the bottom of the dipper travel. Two rod dippers can be measured at a time.

Using the straight edge measure the distance from the edge of the pan to the edges of each trough at the center. You likely will find that they are not exactly the same. The lowest or greatest distance for each trough will be the oil level.

Compare the distance the rod dipper dips with the distance to the lowest trough edge with the gasket in place. The difference is the minimum dip. Also remember that the gasket will crush to ~ 1/2 of its thickness. That crush will add to the dip.

I usually use a level as my straight edge. I clamp a rod or piece of wood to one side as a support leg. It gives me a double check on the accuracy of the measurements. The technique is quick and not nearly as messy as using grease. Also don't have to worry about the grease dipper track settling when the pan is moved. It will work for any block and pan but is only as accurate as your math ability will permit.

Given the uncertainty of the measurements provided, I would think it best to rent the tool or call a vendor that rents these out and ask them to measure one for you?????

I have a 40 that is slowly going together. When I went to clean the pistons I found that 3 of the rods were delaminating so called to get quote & was convinced to have machined & use inserts for not much more. What I got back was not my original rods. I have read & reread this & other posts to figure out how to adjust dippers & when I set up my tool to the dimensions above I had a lot of clearance between tool & dippers. I finally used the 1/4" dip into the trough & set my tool so it would go in the trough that far. I still have clearance a little bit more than the gasket thickness (with tool on block) which to my way of thinking would be about 3/16" dip into trough. I am going to measure more carefully to see if that number is right.
How much material do they grind off of the rod & cap & is this the cause of my issues? Are there special dippers for rods with inserts? Thanks

They don't take off a lot of material to true the parting surfaces. When they did my rods, they took more material off the cap boring than off the rod. The parting line ended up slightly above the center of the bore. I think this is because as material is taken off the rod, the oil hole above moves to the side.

Hi all
Anyone in favor of filling the troughs with grease to get a definite height on the dippers ??
Rotate in reverse not to plug the oil feed holes.

Have not tried but seemed logical..

Ollie

That can be done, however you must use a gasket so that the thickness is allowed for.