VCCA Home Forums TECHNICAL - GENERAL Tech Talk Oil and ZDDP etc

Can some one direct me to the discussion that took place here in Chat that talked about oil and zinc content? I can't find it.

I am worrying again about what I'm putting in my crankcase. I drive the '53 to distant Meets and Tours, at fairly high rpm for extended periods. For example, next week we will be driving 1,000 miles roundtrip to the Central Meet, running 55 to 60 mph. With the 3.55 Powerglide rear end, that is 2900 - 3000 rpm. I don't want to slowly eat a camshaft, etc. Trying to wrap my brain around zinc content. Couple of guys have told me to run Brad Penn Grade 1. Reading about it all on the internet gradually makes you crazy....

All good oils have ZDDP but the amount has been reduced in the last few years. If you have a new camshaft an additional additive would be best for the break-in period. Also some of the new cams are of questionable quality and continued use would be suggested.

Any 1953 with the original cam could get by with what is already in the oil.

At 60 MPH your engine is turning a less than 2800 RPM.

Will see you Tuesday as I will spend that day at the meet.

Gene - great to hear you will be at the Central! Look forward to seeing you.

It is a "new" cam, but we are well past the break-in stage. Changed out the Break-In oil after the first 1,000 miles. Now, it has gone 2,000 more miles (and 10 months), so it's time for fresh oil again.

Don,
There is too much published or posted on oil by people that frankly don't know of what they are writing. If anyone wants to get the best available information, based on actual experience and scientific testing, the major oil companies and auto company sites are best. Just remember that our old cars, yes including '53, are low temperature engines compared with modern small displacement, high horsepower power plants.

Try not to believe what people that stand to gain significant $$$ from getting you to buy their products. The dominate the "new" "improved" [read "miracle"] automotive stuff. Despite claims otherwise and "string theory" the laws of physics particularly motion and thermodynamics still hold.

When I got my 38 coupe last september the owner said he had changed to synthetic oil and did not know what oil the previous owner used. The original 216 engine is still in the car. It looks like engine has probably been rebuilt. I have drived 1250 miles so far and have not added oil yet (down about 1/3 quart) it is still clean looking enough that it it hard to see on the dip stick. There is no filter. My question is what oil and weight would be the best for me to use. Stay with synthetic oil? Change back to regular oil? What grade? How many miles between oil changes? thanks grant

OK, I talked at length wtih my friendly local engine builder at NAPA, and went with his advice. Valvoline Premium 10W30 (natural oil, not synthetic), and add a can of Lucas Oil brand Zinc additive (not cheap, but neither are engine rebuilds).

50/50
Use a regular oil in 10W-30 weight. There is nothing wrong with synthetic but regular oil is 1000 times better that oils were in 1938. I would suggest changing the oil in fall and doing once a year or every 1500 miles or so. Never mind the lack of a filter.

Chevy Guru- I feel you are doing the right thing (cheap insurance) by adding the zinc additive and here is why. Several years ago cam manufacturers received numerous complaints of failed camshafts, mostly flat tappet (solid lifter) style. Camshaft failures were traced back to the reduction/removal of zinc in motor oil. When the zinc finds its way to the combustion chamber and is burned in late model engines, it damages the catalytic converter. With this said, the zinc fortified oils that remain on the market are labeled for “off road or race use only.”

One can argue the elimination of zinc will not lead to camshaft or lifter wear in previously broken in or non high performance applications. This is not true, and I doubt anyone can claim that a certain camshaft profile or open/closed spring pressure is exempt from failure. Lifters rotate while the engine is running to reduce localized wear. Zinc adds that extra extreme pressure lubrication and I feel safer using it with any flat tappet or hydraulic camshaft in vintage or hot rod autos... Just my .02 worth.

Jeff,
You have a right to state your opinion but it would be more accurate if you got your facts right. "the elimination of zinc" from gasoline engine mineral oils is not accurate. The levels have been reduced but not eliminated.

According to a GM Techlink publication authored by GM engineer Bob Olree, testing revealed that levels of ZDDP above .14% (1400 ppm) have shown reduced break in valve train scuffing for flat tappet but long term wear increased over lower levels. At about 0.20% ZDDP started attacking the grain boundries in the iron, resulting in camshaft spalling. SM grade oils contain a max. of 0.08% so adding additional ZDDP CAN actually result in camshaft damage not protection.

So caution should be taken when supplementing motor oil with ZDDP (or ZDP) additives.

So Chipper, What do you do when you change your oil ?

I use regular 10W-30 in all my cars. No additives. If they have a filter I change it too.

I remove the drain plug

I've used 100% synthetic oil in every internal combustion engine I own and have never had dirty oil before oil changes (which is 5000 mile intervals on newer engines and as needed on vintage engines)and never had an oil related engine problem. It's simply better oil any way you want to compare. I know a lot of folks will disagree, but I can only make my decisions on actual results witnessed over many years and not opinion based on ???

I go 10 thousand on 100% synthetic...It's getting dirty, but it also holds 8 1/2 Quarts...

Good zinger there, Gene!

You are usually so "just plain factual" in your posts that I wasn't expecting that.

Sure caused me to smile and chuckle.

Thanks,
Charlie

While picking up some Quakerstate full synthetic for my 2000 Silverado (less expensive than Mobil 1 and a very good full synthetic) I noticed a QS oil called Defy:
http://www.quakerstate.com/#/motor-oil/defy
This oil features increased zinc additives that are claimed to significantly reduce wear. This may be of interest to VCCA members seeking an oil with higher zinc anti-wear content. I can't vouch for the Defy oil since I've never used it, but have used the QS Max Durability full synthetic for a couple years with very good results.

It would be intresting to see just ow much extra zinc it contains. They may be trying to get on the zinc $$$$ band wagon.

Maybe they read Chevy Chatter

detergent or non detergent. That is the question. I thought multi-viscosity is too thin for 1930's engines???

Not so, 10W-30 detergent is the oil of choice.

why though? And with a shot of ZDDP?

You may not have been on Chat but the recommended modern oil has been discussed several times. Despite what other "experts" will tell you detergent oil is okay. There is no need to add anything to the 10w-30 for it to far exceed the oils sold when your engine was new.

As someone involved with engine rebuilding today I can assure you that the rebuild of a stock 350 without the use of a ZDDP additive or ZDDP break in oil for initial start up will result in premature failure. Most if not all shops here make that a condition of warranty.
The factors that determine if you should continue adding ZDDP to your engine after break in are cam profile, valve spring pressure and rocker arm ratio. A 216 probably not but a High Performance V8 I would say yes, cheap insurance but as stated in a post above not in excess.
Are today’s oils good, yes but like so many of Bill Gates creations not backwards compatible.
Personally I use synthetic oil in all my late model vehicles because of it’s superior cold weather performance but not in my collector cars. Synthetic is thinner and runs off the cam and other parts during the typical 8 months of storage leaving metal to metal contact at start up.
There are numerous articles on the net, here are links to a few.

http://www.enginebuildermag.com/Article/91130/inside_flat_tappet_camshaft_andlifter_technology.aspx
http://www.widman.biz/uploads/Corvair_oil.pdf
http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/engine/flat_tappet_cam_tech/viewall.html
http://www.aera.org/ep/downloads/ep1/EP012008_8-16.pdf

Chevrolet sold a camshaft break-inoil with ZDDP as far back as 1957. 1957 cars had the additive in the oil from the factory and insisted it be used for the break-in of a new camshaft.
At that time good oils had a small amount of ZDDP but not enough for break-in use.
The straight six cam is along side of the crankshaft and gets plenty of oil thrown on it. The V-8 cam is somewhat up out of the way and needs all the help it can get.
I don't recall of ever selling a straight six cam due to a lobe being worn-ff. On the V-8 if it didn't get regular oil changes often a lobe or two would wear off.

hello there mr.partsnjunk,
What are you doing posting this kind of stuff, are you trying to start a war or just pushing that ZDDP additive or ZDDP break in oil product? I am going to strongly dissagree with you. Not that I have ever done over five or six total overhauls in fifty years. one reason I haven't done a whole bunch of overhauls is that the ones that I have done have run for ever and haven't had any failures, zero! I use Lubreplate assembly grease and use 10W30 as break in oil and then use 10W30 for the next 100,000 or 150,000 miles or 20 years which is about as long as I drive anything, since I drive mostly Chevrolets. 235s, 261s, 327s, 350s, and a 1928 four banger. I use the GM oil from the Chevrolet dealership, or Pennszoil or Quaker State or Valvoline or even TSC oil. And yes there are numerous articles on the internet ...anything from justifiication for eating comquats and maroon back vinegar rhones for sexual enhancement to about any silly thing you can think of, along with a whole lot of good stuff, one just has to sort out the good, from the bad, and the ugly.

Once I did have a 1976 K10 Surburbuan (400SB) full time 4 wheel drive, that had to have an early overhaul after 170,000 miles of hauling heavy trailer loads from Texas, Oklahoma and Colorado, Utah, it started to use some oil, valve seals, and when it got one Qt. low the lifters would start clicking, stop, put in a Qt. of oil and it was Ok. When I tore it down the reason was that the oil pickup strainer had fallen off the oil pump and it was starving for oil at one Qt. low, I did a complete rebuild, crank and cam was within specs of new, put in new inserts, new rods and pistons and 116 new valves and lifters, fixed it up for another 12 years and 50K miles before I traded it in on the 95 Silverado.

I have a 1995 1500 Silverado extended cab pickup 350 Throttle body , automatic with 150K miles on it and has never had so much as a fuel pump replaced and it goes in to the Chevrolet dealer for an oil and filter change (Mr. Good wrench or GM oil). several sets of tires, a couple of batteries and a complete brake job at 120,000 miles with new calipers and rotors, shoes. I have a 2005 Tahoe with a 5.3 liter and trailering package at 150k miles it has had two sets of tires and one replacement battery from Walmart, and never has had anything but service from the Chevrolet dealer I bought it from. I reckon I must just be lucky?