VCCA Home Forums TECHNICAL - 1945 AND EARLIER 1937-1945 Naval Jelly for Old Rust Removal

Being a 66 year old 'upstart' in this vintage Chev restoration game (I am restoring the 40 Master Deluxe I drove through college and Grad School), please bear with me when I offer this "discovery".

After I had the coil, plugs, wires, distributor cap, etc. off for replacement, I decided to de-rust and de-grease the rocker arm and push rod covers and paint them the original Chevy Blue-Gray (which I found at my friendly local Advanced Auto store).

Well, after 40+ years of being stored in a METALLIC Machine Shed and only driven annually, the rust and grease build-up was terrible.

No longer having access to a chemical lab (if I did, I would have used hydrochloric acid), I used Naval Jelly (Phosphoric and sulfuric acids +, etc.) and it worked beautifully - on the rust, (won't touch grease, for that you need gasoline, Mineral spirits, etc., and elbow grease). Brush it on, let it set a few minutes - depending on temperature - and wipe it off!

One word of caution, however. Rinse the ---- out of it with water before painting. And to make certain all the acidic residue is gone, a final rinse with a dilute solution of baking soda in water wouldn't hurt.

Don't laugh. Just trying to contribute.

Doc :rolleyes:

Hi DocB. One of the moderators may move this thread to the body and paint section.

You sound like you might have some chemestry background... anyway, your experience might help me !

Today I plan to start degreasing the frame from my '37 Chevy 1/2 ton. Yesterday I removed the engine and running gear, and today I need to remove the brake lines and other small assorted hardware that is still attached to it. Then I'm going to start prepping it for refinish.

For some reason, the auto supply stores in the area still sell Gunk engine degreaser, but I doubt that it is legal to use it anywhere in the state because it shouldn't be introduced into the water system (so I refuse to use it). I haven't had time to track down a "Safety Clean" supplier yet, so I plan to use kerosene or diesel fuel today, then take the residue to the household hazardous waste disposal. Although it's probably not safe to use anything but water, I would never advocate anyone to use gasoline as a solvent... PLEASE DON"T!

I had planned to grit blast it when it's clean, but it's getting pretty cold here in northern Utah. I may work out a booth arrangement in my garage (I know I'll have to do a lot of work to avoid the dangers of silicosis). As an option, a fellow VCCA member (coach32) set me on to a product called "Rust-Solve" (from a company called "Total Safe Solutions Inc", http://www.cleanrust.com). According to their website, it is a powder that you mix with water to make a non acid, non caustic liquid that removes rust (rust only, no paint). The downside for frame work is that you have to keep it in continous, renewed contact with the metal. I don't know if it nitrates the surface, but it really cleans it up! I know this sounds like a plug for the company, and I don't have much experience with the material, but I thought you might be interested.

My questions for this forum are:

1) What is an economical, safe solvent or process to use for grease removal? I wonder if something along the lines of kerosene and scraping to get the heavy stuff off, followed by the use of a commercial grease and wax remover (as is sold for automotive refinish work) might be the trick.

2) In automotive refinish work, the suppliers recommend that you degrease a surface BEFORE you abrade the old paint so that you don't drive contaminates into the surface. I wonder if this same warning applies to bare metal, or just areas where you intend to leave some original coating?

3) Does Naval Jelly remove rust and passivate the iron at the same time?

So many questions, so little time!

Just to let you know, the primary difference between gasoline, kerosene and diesel fuel is the length of the hydrocarbons. Gasoline is typically around C4 to C12 while kerosene is heavier C6 to C16 and diesel fuel is heavier still. However, they are all distilled products of crude oil fractionation and contain nasty organics, benzene (C6), toluene (C7), etc. I don't know why you would consider one so much "safer" then the other but you should use the same precautions when dealing with any crude oil derivative.

I have heard there are various none acid rust removers but have never tried any. There are a lot of companies that make a rust remover/passivation liquid that contains zinc phosphate. The zinc is left behind in the process as the passivation agent. I have heard of “nitrating” iron but that is a very weak surface passivation caused by dipping iron in strong nitric acid. The acid will form a very thin, well-bonded iron oxide layer that will resist further rusting. I don't think you can paint over this layer however. The zinc phosphate works well and holds paint well.

I would and always do clean the surface before preparing the surface for any coatings. Caustic is the primary ingredient in lye soap and it will remove a multitude of grease and road gunk. If you can find a 55 gallon steel drum you can load a lot of parts in the drum and even heat it to get a better removal rate.

Hope that helps,
Brian

Lenn,

Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner, but in the meantime, 'bigbth' answered a few of your questions.

Bigbth, you were right about everything except the chain lengths of the various "light end" fractions from petroleum. But what the heck. It's close enough.

Lenn. I will attempt to answer your questions and comments in order.

Yes, I worked for 40+ years as an organic chemist with 25+ of those years in the lubricant and lubricant additive business.

I'll take your word about "Gunk" since I know nothing about it's composition, but I think you may be overly cautious about gasoline. It's OK as long as there is adequate ventilation, no prolonged exposure and a healthy respect for its flammability and low flash point.

Yes, I have come across the "Rust solve" web site and have been curious about it myself and won't even hazard a guess about it's composition. I thought it was too expensive myself, but it sounds like you have tried it.

I have not been back in the old auto hobby long enough to advise on the best grease removal product. I have used both commercial de-greasers and laboratory solvents on my 40. If you don't have a chemical background, I would stick with the commercial degreasers. They are pretty effective. For the real heavy stuff, just scrape (or, as in some parts of my 40) chisel it off.

Always degrease before painting.

From the composition of Naval Jelly, I would say that it has little, if any passivating effect. The commercial rust removers containing zinc phosphate, suggested by bigbth, would be excellent passivators.

Good luck on your pick-up Lenn.

DocB

Hi again. Thanks for the information, and the time you took to answer me.

I haven't used it yet, but I bought a gallon of "Super Heavy Duty Degreaser" made by Genlabs in Chino CA. today. It is mixed 1 part degreaser to 26 parts water for degreasing machinery. The container say's it's biodegradable, for whatever that is worth. I'll let you know how it works. For the next several hours of working time, I'll be scraping and yes, chiseling off the grease / Idaho mud mixture that is all over the front of my frame. There is even some nice shiny black paint benieth the inner fenders. It looks like some of this crud has been there for over 70 years, cool!

I don't know where to get lye soap... but the 55 gallon drum sounds interesting (I don't have a lot of room though).

I am probably thinking of zinc phosphate as opposed to nitrate... that explains why I've not found what I'm looking for, I'm searching on the wrong keywords!

coach32 gave me about a quart of mixed rust-solve and I've been soaking a '37 door hinge half in it for about 6 days now. It's been cold in the garage, so it is not working very fast. It has cleaned up most of the rust, and has left all of the paint. The clean metal doesn't quite look like it's been sand blasted, but it is a nice dull gray.

I'm aware that gasoline, kerosine, diesel fuel, JP1 and JP2 et al are all petroleum distillates, but organic chemestry was a long time ago (all I remember are benzene rings, 4 bonds to a carbon atom, boiling my still so hard the higher fractions ended up in the lower fractions, and the little readhaired girl I studied with!). My concern over using gasoine is flammibility... I suspect any of it in contact with your skin will wind up toughening up your liver!

In the November, 2002 issue of "Skinned Knuckles" magazine, there's a write-up in Matt Joseph's column about a rust removal product called "Evapo-Rust" (www.orisonllc.com ). Mr. Joseph tested the product and finds it not only worked better than he expected, but the product appears to be enviromentally friendly. Matt Joseph is a 'hands-on' guy and his reports in the past have been informative, accurate and helpful. "Skinned Knuckles" magazine, by the way, has a wealth of information.
And, no, I don't have any vested interest in either Evapo-Rust (I am going to try it, however) or "S-K magazine. I just thought I'd add my 2¢ for your listening & dancing pleasure!!!

Very interesting product. The URL, however is www.evapo-rust.com.

It apparently works by chelation, which can be a slow, but effective process. The specific hazardous chemicals were blanked out on their MSDS sheet on their web site, which is of questionable legality.

I would like to try it, but the only source in SC is way down state. How much is a quart?

DocB

DocB:

I hadn't tried www.evapo-rust.com but www.orisonllc.com will also take you to the manufacturer's site and to evapo-rust, as well.

Refering back to the article in S-K, Evapo- Rust comes in quantities as small as 32oz ($9.95) up to 55 gallon drums for $715. They also have 1-gal. for $21, 1½ gals. for $28.95, a 4-gallon case for $72 and a 5-gallon container for $80. According to the their website, the prices include "standard shipping". I'm going to try the 32 oz size on some small parts to see how it works. The website lists all the different vendors in the USA that carry their product or it can be purchased dirctly by calling the manufacturer or on their website. There is a vendor in Pineville, NC, if that's any closer for you.

just in case this is helpful, this is what I used recently:

I cleaned my block with Polyclense, a cleaner made for cleaning paint brushes. I had 50 years of grease, farm dirt etc. all over the block. I used rubber gloves and just kept brushing. For built up areas, I scraped with a screwdriver after it softened. This was done when it was too cold to use a water product. The interesting thing is that it appeared to take off surface rust too because I ended up with gray colored cast iron! I will wash it down in the Spring when it is warm enough to paint.

Thanks--I am also just a beginner but restoring a 32 coupe.--any ideas help