VCCA Home Forums TECHNICAL - 1945 AND EARLIER 1933-1936 33 Head Gasket Leaking

I installed a new head gasket two years ago and it is now leaking at the second to last rear head bolt on the driver's side. I did not use permatex or any other gasket cement on the brass head gasket. Before I replace it, should I be using any sealant on this gasket (I think not) and does anyone know the appropriate torque specs for the head bolts on a 33 master?

Have you tried re-torquing the head to see if that will stop the problem? Is it truly a problem or just a seep that does not affect performance?

Thanks J. I am hoping it is a loose bolt. When I installed the head, a person on this site recommended not overtightening and going 60ftlbs. I think that was good advice because I did not want to break anything. But I am hoping after driving the car over the past two years that possibly the head bolts loosened. The one that is leaking is leaking enough to leave a puddle under the car over night. I cannot see if the rear bolts are also leaking, but without my torque wrench I was able to move the leaking bolt slightly, so I suspect it was loose. I don't want to tighten it any more until I get some torque spec recommendations. Then I will torque down all the bolts and see if that solves the problem.

You say without torque wrench you could move the head stud (bolt) then it definitely loose, it is wise to torque all the bolts evenly.
When you get to the torque wrench loosen 1 bolt about 1/4 turn then torque down to specs then move on to the next in sequence. When I dont have manufacturers sequence I start at the centre most bolt and work out in a spiral then without adjusting the wrench do a second run of each bolt (without loosening) along 1 side of the engine and return along the otherside as a double check that all have been done.
Tony

Might also loosen the drain plug and see if any water is in the pan, it will sink and be the first out if so. Don't drop the plug! cause even if water comes out, the oil, if it has set a few days, will be free of water. good luck with the test. You might wish to check the valve minimum lash when you get to a point of driving the car much.

After re-torquing the head bolts in the proper sequence per the 33 manual. I ran the car and closely inspected the head seam. Unfortunately between head bolt 10 and 14, I found coolant squirting from the seam. I guess I have to replace the head gasket. My biggest nightmare is removing the four piece hood without scratching/damaging anything. Guess I will remove the radiator shell, then the hood, then the head. I have only this weekend to get it done before the car show the following weekend.

I have a spare Victor Steel-Faced Head Gasket. The instructions do reference a gasket cement (though it says the gasket is precoated and needs no further cement). Of course it recommends Victor Seal Aid. Is there a Permatex or other readily available product I can use to ensure the head gasket seals properly this time?

If the bolts or studs are drilled into the water jacket,they need to have a sealent on the threads. The water could be coming through the threads.

Don't worry about the fasteners, if they leaked the water would exit from that area rather than were you indicate. Check the head for a flat plane and remedy before installing it. I like the copper spray sealant, I think you can get it from most auto supply shops.

I mostly use "Holymar" spray on head gaskets and especially the full metal surface even if they are precoated.
On 1 gasket the original let the compression out without interfering with the water jacket, new gasket a couple of layers of holymar spray (no machining) and it is still there after 35,000 miles.
Tony

I will never get a new gasket installed in time for the car show next weekend. Just can't get time off from work. How terrible is it to drive the car 40 miles round trip. The coolant is spraying out in small amounts. I assume it is impregnating the oil, so I should not drive the car.

One evening after work should be all you need if the head is indeed flat. Don't give up before you start. If you are not getting water in the oil you could try a dose of radiator stop leak and see if that will stop the leak enough to go to the show.

Great idea re the radiator stop leak. I'll give it a shot and if it does not work, I'll dive into the repair.

J, I put a bottle of Prestone Super Radiator Stop Leak in the radiator. I ran the car for 30 minutes and the leak is just an occasional drip now. Thanks much for the tip. I will not run the car much until show day. After the show I will disassemble the car, flush the radiator and replace the head gasket. At least I won't be blowing my head gasket trying to repair the car in time.

Thanks again.

I'd steer clear of that radiator clogging "Barrs Leak"....Aluma-seal tends to migrate to the leak it's self and not leave a thick coat on everything...but that's just my opinion . Did you try giving the bolts on either side of the leak another 5 or so lbs. of torque ? old bolts...bolts with lube...etc... will throw off torque readings ...I'd give them bolt's in the vicinity another twist before a possible unnecessary tear-down...I've done it before...didn't hurt...but that's me...

Forgot to mention...gasket sealers are never recommended on head gaskets...re-torque after break-in on old style head gaskets used to be the "norm"...I personally won't install anything but "Fel-Pro " W/Teflon Head gaskets ( red rings on one side ) and there's no need to re-torque them...But that's just me....

Some old time stop leak remedies were black pepper, or a raw egg in the cooling system and drive until done. I do like the alumaseal as well.

I have used a product called "chemiweld" with reasonable results (some were long term others a lot shorter). I dont remember who manufactures it though so maybe an Aus product.
The last time I used "bars leaks" it was a total failure except to totally block the radiator tubes.
Tony

Had a similar experience with my 28, originally put together 38 years ago. Approx 2 years ago had a slight coolant seep between 2 and 3 on the plug side. Checked Head bolt torque, nothing especially out of spec, a couple here and there were down, probably from using 2nd hand bolts back in 75. Ran car for a few more months, still seeping coolant. As Kevin 47 mentioned put an extra few lbs on bolts on each side of seepage. No problem since, and I run the car a lot harder these days.

Good luck

Cheers

Ray

What is a safe torque spec? I tightened all head bolts down to just under 60 ftlbs. Can these old (mine are original) head bolts snap. I was considering replacing the bolts with new hardened steel head bolts but I am afraid I might crack the head. My tentativeness might be the problem. I am always afraid to overtighten bolts on this car. I did snap a flywheel bolt once. Any ideas on a safe torque spec? And can I warp the head if I tighten the two in the problem area more than the others?

65 to 70 ft/lbs should be okay. The original head bolts are soft and will stretch before they break. Take them out one at a time. Lube the threads with light oil and reinstall. If you feel that the resistance ever does not increase as you turn. STOP! The bolt is stretching. It is easy to check to see if the bolts are stretched. Just lay two side by side (sorta like nightcrawlers at midnight) threads to treads. If they don't line up peak to valley perfectly one or both are stretched. You can also use a thread gauge or die if you have them.

I use an old beam type wrench because I was told many years ago to torque each bolt in about 4 steps to the desired final torque. Do all bolts the same in each step. When you get to the final torque, tighten to the spec., back it off, torque to spec again, back it off and torque a final time. The three or four times at max. assures that any imperfections on the mating surfaces are flattened and the bolt pressure will be stable over time. Because of the tighten, loosen sequence the ratchet type torque wrench takes more time particularly when at the max torque.

Right...I wouldn't get nervous 'till I'm past 70 lbs.( and as for crack'in your head...fer get about it ) Beam type Torque wrench's are the only one's I trust . When a bolt or stud has reached it "elastic limit" once it's done . One more "trick" I use is to loosen a few bolts that are further away from the bolts next to the "leak"...then tighten the ones next to the leak and then work away from them radially...it's worked for me...

Kinda like smoothing out a piece of paper you wouldn't work from the outside in .... Sorry , I meant "past" it's "elastic limit"...

Thanks Chipper, Kevin. I will go back to my beam type torque wrench and start all over again by removing the bolts and following the manual's tigtening sequence. The leak is around the last two bolts on the driver's side toward the firewall and the leak is above the curved part of the block (curved for the bolt shaft) at each bolt on the seam.

I haven't looked at the tightening sequence , but like smoothing out "crinkled" paper it probably starts near the center ( you have to give it "room" , it likes to have somewhere to "go" as you tighten it down ) or it tends to bind and you might end up with what we call a " discontinuity in or of the lamination " i.e...gasket leak lol

If a head bolt hole extends into the water jacket then a sealant such as Permatex® Aviation Form-A-Gasket® No. 3 Sealant is good to lubricate and seal the threads.