VCCA Home Forums TECHNICAL - 1945 AND EARLIER 1933-1936 To paint or not to paint...

That is one nice car!

Thanks, Ray :)
She sports the radio you so nicely restored.

Being involved with a shop that does restoration on 1955-57 Chevys.,naturally the first preference is powder coating, but some owners will not ante up the money for powder coating. In that case Por 15 is normally used on the frame after sandblasting and it is normally sprayed on. This is about the only place it is used except in some instances where a minor restoration is done and the body is not removed and Por 15 is used on the bottom of the floor pan. As Mr Mack stated once the can is opened it has a very short life. We have found that if you cover the can with Saran wrap before installing the lid it helps if you need to re-open the can. As stated if you get it on your skin be prepaired to wear it off. Our overall experience has been satisfactory.
Just another opinion,
dandyd

Powder coating is certainly the way to go for that 'accurate' restoration of a vintage Chevrolet. Yep, powder coating, just like they came from the factory ! :rolleyes:

The basic idea of POR-15 is to prevent rust. If you don't remove the body from the frame so that the entire frame area can be coated with this stuff, then what good is it when only part of the surface is coated with POR-15 and not the entire area? Rust will still form in places that have not been coated. Sounds like a waste of time if the entire frame or if all of the body pans are not coated to prevent rust as intended. :confused: :confused: :confused:

JYD, I think that the bodyfloor pans and frames that are rusty but not rusted thru can be separated enough, without removing the body completely from the frame, to get the POR15 to coat both surfaces and protected just by wire brushing the surfaces, without having to sandblast or de rust. The idea is to "Paint Over Rust" and encapsulate it so that O2 won't cause further rusting, does it work? ...Maybe!

Again, we are talking about doing a through job. If you can raise the body high enough to get your hand in there with a paint brush, or to use a wire brush, then the body can be removed totally. It is just as much work to raise the body two inches as it is to remove it. Just painting the exposed rusted areas that you can see with POR-15 is not going to protect the most critical areas, i.e. unexposed body floor pans, the tops of cross members and the tops of the frame side rails between the body and the frame where the rust occurs. Those are the areas that gather the most rust.

POR-15 is intended to be used to prevent rust, therefore, it should be used as intended, and that would be to protect the critical areas. Otherwise, all of the time involved and the money spent for the stuff is wasted, since the critical areas are going to continue to rust if they are not coated.

Powder coating is certainly the way to go for the "Accurate" restoration of a vintage Chevrolet. Yep, powder coating just like they came from the factory! It is sure hard to post something on this forum without someone taking exception to it! Maybe I made a poor choice of words when I used the word "Restoration". Perhaps I should have used the word "Modification" since this shop after several years in business has never been approached to restore a vintage Chevrolet to its "Accurate" condition just like it came from the factory. To stay in business you build the vehicle the way the customer requests it to be built!

Hey Bowtie Bob,

How did the frames come from the factory in 1940, and can that process be duplicated today? Would points be deducted for powder coating the frame?

The frames came from the factory in 1940 exactly as they come from the factory today.Look at a new truck (as cars no longer have frames).The metal was not prepared in any way.After frame was riveted together a black coating was applied (enamel of some low cost variety??).Did not have a real high gloss and was often refered to as chassis black.Surface was rough as it was not sanded, not primed. and not meant to last and above all not for show.Most frames today are over restored.Fortunatly VCCA dosen't deduct for an over restored frame.

"Fortunatly VCCA doesn't deduct for an over restored frame."

I think that Roadster32 will totally disagree with the above statement because his frame and body on his beautiful 1932 roadster were deducted 15 points (as I remember)at a VCCA meet for being "over restored".

On the frames, back in the early 1930's the frames were dipped in black Japan enamel......which was some pretty tuff stuff, and the shine was a gloss. In contrast, on my brand new 1977 Monte Carlo (it was still new the day I sold it back in 1994 with 911 original miles) the frame was painted with an almost flat black sticky substance. You could wipe it off with cleaning solvent and the bare metal was exposed underneath. :eek: :eek: :( :( :(

My '57 had a dealer applied spray coating of a tar like rust proofing (undercoating) when purchased in '57.

This stuff was on the frame and under the fenders and floorpans and even on the underside of the hood. The stuff was a bear to get off but all of the metal under it was perfect; so I was glad the original owner had put it there.

So my question; is there something that the dealer applied then to the underside of the cars that could still be applied today and keep the car original for judging??

It would be "as delivered" to the buyer from the dealership.

My '51 Chevy has some similar undercoating on the frame and etc. Under the lingings in the trunk and under the hood are large insulation panels that were glued in place. The panels look something like the modern day insulation batts that you would install in the walls of a house. Both the undercoating and the insulation material in the trunk and under the hood were installed by the dealer when the car was new.

You folks have convinced me I did the right thing, as I used the acid prep sold by the POR-15 people and the frame looks like it probably did when it came from the factory a satin finish - not real shiny or real dull. It has not been ground or filled to be perfectly smooth - probably as it came from the factory. It has been my goal, in restoring my 35 Master, to have everthing LOOK as correct as possible. And by correct, I mean to have it look as it came from the factory but to use materials and techniques to have the result last a lot longer than the inexpensive materials that were used to produce this inexpensive car.

No one answered my questions, however:
When was the formulation changed to be more resistive to UV. Someone reported that it was changed and thus must have info about when. I want to know if what I bought is UV resistant.

Has anyone succesfully used the top coat "chassis black" sold by the POR-15 people?

The comment that worried me initially was that it blistered.

I question the recommendation to powder coat a frame. There was a discussion of painting wheels a while back that concluded that powder coating them was not such a good idea because of stone chipping. Of course if the vehicle is only driven out of a trailer at a meet and back into the trailer, chipping would not be a problem. But driving the car in a ride could be.

Many dudes that I know powder coat their frames and they drive their cars. The frames look great and they are pretty much chip resistant. And, I have some friends that have trailer queen show cars, and they also powdercoat their frames as well. This is becoming more and more of a practice since the powder coating not only looks great for a very long time, but it is pretty much resilient to road conditions and etc.

I powdercoated all six wire spoke wheels on my 32 and have driven the car on different club tours and outings with out getting any chips on them. I think It Is difficult to chip the powdercoating. I know others who have powdercoated wheels on their tri- five cars and none of them have had a chipping problem. Some of the cars are driven thousands of miles each year. Getting the right color In powdercoating was a big problem not to long ago, But now the colors you can get, Is that you can almost come up with any color you want.

JYD the quote may be true with a large restoration shop with overhead hoists and plenty of room to lift the body of the chassis, however it is possible to raise the body a few inches in a home single car garage and do a reasonably good job of protecting the floor pans and chassis with a floor jack and a set of jack stands, it seems to me, that market is where POR15 is primarly aimed.I suspect many "Amatuer Restorations" are done this way.

"reasonably good job".

That's the whole thing.....if you are going to go through all of the hard work to raise the body a few inches to do a "reasonably good job", then why not do it right in the first place? :eek: :eek:

Even a large body like the one on my '69 Impala can be removed from the frame in a home garage without large restoration shop equipment. :love:

..And where are you going to put the durned body? in the bathtub?...why do a Reasonable good job?..because a do it right in the first place will never get done, the kid has to get this thing on the road, got to drive it to work!..it is all about the time and the money , the money, the money!
Are you saying if you can't do a professional 100% restoration, then just don't do anything? I bet that the restoration vendors sell almost as much sanding, grinding and buffing materials that fit on a 3/8" drill motor as for a 8" Baldor pedestal shop machine.

It takes just almost just as long to raise the body a few inches as it does to remove it. Where will you put the body? Well.....I don't know about you, but those of us that have a garage put it on jack stands next to the frame! Hum......maybe they don't have garages in Texas??? ha ha!

Also, in this case it doesn't take coating the frame that much longer, nor does it cost any more to do it right as it does to do it half-way. :eek:

Your right again everyone that wants to "fix up an old car" don't have a nice garage, And in West Texas it is a chore finding a shade tree over three feet tall.

How long was your last complete restoration from start to finish? includeing waiting on parts, etc. etc.

You are missing the point. We are talking about coating the frame and underbody panels with POR-15 or whatever, and not a complete restoration. Only coating the frame in the areas that are visible will not help the critical rusty areas between the body and the fame unless they are coated as well. You mentioned just raising the body a little to clean and coat the frame and to gain access to the critical areas that cannot be seen. I am suggesting that if you go to all of that work to raise the body a little, then you just might as well take the body off, totally clean the frame to bare metal and then coat it, and the critical areas, with your top coat of choice. Then, when completed, the body can be set back on the frame and the coating job is done correctly. That has absolutely nothing to do with a complete 100% restoration. That, then, would be up to the car owner if he wants to go any further with the project.

The point is, by useing POR15 and painting over the rust there is no need to remove the body from the frame, or to grind, sand or sandblast, use all those harsh environmentally harmful chemicals and it can be done right in your garage with a few hand tools! ....JYD, Won't you just send me your credit card number right now and I will have your order of POR15 on the way tonight! You can be driving your nice shiny rustbucket Honda Civic next week!

He!He!, Do you think I should start a training program for potential POR15 salesmen?

Ha ha! Well....let's see if I understand this correctly. The idea of POR-15 is to stop rust therefore it is okay to only coat the rusted areas that you can see with this stuff and not worry about the critical areas that you can't see or get to, i.e. like the tops of the frame rails for example. So then, once the visible part of the fame is coated with the POR-15, and everything looks cool, the critical areas, that were not coated because the body was still on the frame, are allowed to continue to rust. Wow.....what a concept! Now I've got it!! ha ha! I kill me!

Naw..........you don't need to send me any POR-15 because this old mutt doesn't have any Jap stuff, so thanks for your offer. And besides, they don't give dogs credit cards anyway! :( :eek: :eek:

"Do you think I should start a training program for potential POR15 salesmen?" Absolutely!!! You would be a pro at it!!! ha ha!