VCCA Home Forums TECHNICAL - 1945 AND EARLIER 1929-1932 1929 landau Imperial sed convt, Trim!

An interesting arguement... here's my uneducated thoughts!

The first time I heard of this number was through George Dammon's book "Sixty Years of Chevrolet" Not to say that his research was lacking or incorrect, but I wonder now if he took his production quote from the owner of the car pictured, and due to lack of any other paperwork, published it. The book became the hit that it was,and a lot of facts in that book became accepted knowledge. The car was certainly rare enough that at the time it would have been difficult to find other owners to verify the fact. Another example of error in the book is the survival rate of '42 convertibles. Since it was claimed that only one existed, every other one 'discovered' became 'one of two known'!! Although the car is still exceptionaly rare it would be interesting to know how many exist today for sure.

Secondly, as for the survival rates of '29 Landeau Convertibles compared to sedans... I think the rate would be higher as a percentage of production based on the fact it was a convertible. Most convertible sales occur in the southern states, far from winters road salts and rust.

For looking up production figures, are there any parts specific to the convertible that were ordered through outside suppliers? Was the car a sales success...ie would Chevrolet order thousands of top irons, sell 300 cars, and be hung with all the unused parts? Or would the parts be ordered as needed? If we could establish that GM bought X number of parts it could lead to a production number.

Those are all very good points and they should be considered as part of the discussion.

I agree that Chevrolet would not have produced or purchased thousands of one type of part for the convertible landau and then only build 300 cars.

Another good point is the 300 production figure shown in George Dammann's book "Sixty Years of Chevrolet" as you mentioned. Like you, I have never seen that production figure previous to the publishing of his book. Unfortunately, many errors that have been in print have become "gospel" over the years and his production figure of 300 could be one of them.

Even George Dammann was surprised at the survival rate of the convertible landau when the book was published back in 1972. He states: "Surprisingly, though only 300 were built, there are at least 16 still known to be in existence." Again, that was back in 1972 and over the years many more than 16 of these vehicles have surfaced. If George thought that 16 was a lot back in 1972, he would be totally amazed to see how many are actually around today.

1929 Imperial Landau-Fisher Job#8860 -start prod. Dec '28…$725
1929 Imperial Sedan…Fisher Job#8910 … start prod. Jan/Feb '29 $695 The only 1929 production records I have seen are for the first month of production December 1928.Flint Production Record [source is Kettering/GMI Archives in Flint] for the month of December 1928 shows 202 1929 Imperial Landau cars built in Flint Plant Code #1 with … 183 sold with 19 on hand as of Jan 1, 1929.As George D. tells us the 1929 IL was a dumb idea with the several thousand Chevrolet not ordering as many as plan for January Winter delivery. In mid January it was announced the IL would be replaced by the Imperial Sedan which would be $30 less money. What this tells me George must have found production records for say only one plant and the 294 and 300 represents about 1 1/2 to 2 months for the IL early production. 300 x 9 plants US = 2700 units x 1% = est. 27 left.

Was the car built in all of the factories? Common sense would say to build the car in one factory, as 300 units is only a days production! It would be interesting to see some serial #'s of the survivors, and see how many factories they come from. Were they built in Canada?

One must acknowledge that even a bit extreme to the other end of the spectrum, Of 300 1953 corvettes built,I believe over 100 documented cars exist today.

Ken: I don't know the exact number since I have lost count, but over the years I have seen a lot of convertible landaus myself. Given the amount that I have seen existing, your production figure of 2,700 units is probably way more realistic than the 300 figure promoted by George Dammann. However, we still don't know for sure if the cabriolet and the convertible landau body numbers were combined. If they were not combined, then we still have the issue of some of the existing convertible landau body numbers that exceed the 8,000 figure.

Thanks for your valuable input to this discussion....it is most appreciated!

I think this is an excellent example of Chevrolet lovers’ trying to find the facts within Chevy history. We may never know the true number, but if we keep picking maybe we can get a consensus.

Pre25Chevy4 thank you for adding facts to this subject. You mention that during January 1929, after one month of production, George Dell announced that the Imperial Landau was a bad idea and it would be replace by the Imperial Sedan. Maybe that is what happened. Management decided to stop production resulting in only one or two month’s production, hence a total number of about 300.

The 1972 book, is also interesting to me, because it was published seven years after I bough my car. Accordingly, the book could not have been the source of information for the person from whom I bought my car. Notwithstanding the time difference between when I bough and the book was available, the person I bought from said the same thing … 300 produced.

That seller also said something, that I suspect will muddy our waters. The seller told me the car was rare, only 300 built, but also that the limit in production was part of six cylinder introduction. I was told every “Authorized” Chevrolet dealer received one Imperial Landau to help promote the new six. I have no idea how many Authorized Chevrolet dealers there were in 1929, but a good number would be interesting to know.

Finally, I have a picture of a 1929 Imperial Landau newspaper or magazine ad, which features comedians Laurel and Hardy. Stretching a bunch I know, but would such an ad lend any information about the cars being limited production and a showroom attracter?

Ken brings up a good point about the 9 factories which would disprove the 300 figure alone.

On the dealerships back in 1929, I don't know the exact number (maybe Ken can help us out on that as well) but I would guess that there were probably more than 300 Chevrolet dealerships. However, it would be great to know the exact number of dealerships in 1929.

I can add a bit of family history to this discussion. The first Chevrolet purchased in our family was indeed a new '29 Imperial Landau Sedan from the Chevy dealer in Marshall Michigan. It was owned for approximately six months before being traded on a Marmon Sedan. My grandmother told me that it was the worst car they ever owned and they took it back to the dealer because "the cylinders were bored on the bias". Now you non-seamstress people will not understand the quote. Translated into automotive vernacular it meant that the engine burned large quantities of oil because the cylinders were not machined correctly.

As an additional comment my father hated the Marmon because in the winter he had to take a coal bucket put in a few pieces of burning coal from the stoker furnace take them outside, put them into a metal pan and slide it under the engine of the Marmon. That way after about 1/2 hour the oil was warm enough so the engine would turn over fast enough to start and he could be driven to school.

Going back to my Pontiac History book I found-
Pontiac called it a Landau Sedan. It had the same body as a Chevrolet. Pontiac introduced it in Jan. 1929 in their 2nd design series.. There was an early 1st design 1929 Pontiac which was basically a 1928.
The 2nd design 1929 Pontiacs assembled from Jan through March had horizontal hood louvers. Due to crackking problems the went to the verticle louver in April. The history book shows owners Landau Sedans with both horizontal and verticles louvers. Also states the Landau Sedan was produced through Aug. of 1929, the balance of the Pontiac 1929 cars went to November.
About 180,000 1929 Pontiacs (2 design) were made.

The number of Chevrolet dealers in 1929 were probably at a record high. Sales were way up and every little town had a Chevrolet dealer. Probably at least one third were closed by 1932.

The majority of 1929 Chevrolets were scraped by 1941 and a model with a folding top that required expensive up-keep would have been the first to go. As early as 1938 the 1929 Chevrolet was listed in the back of the NADA used car guide with no value listed due to its low value. At that time the retail price of a 1930 Chevrolet was less than $100.00.

My thoughts are that the Chevrolet was produced at the same time the Pontiac was and the total number would have been in the thousands, and the number I saw on the streets in this city during WWII would back-up my thoughts.

If only 300 were made there would be next to none surviving today. Believe me that body style or even a 1929 Chevrolet meant nothing special to people in 1941. They were just another old car known for breaking rear axles.

Dear Chevegene,

I am new to this... so pardon me ... my first post. Noticed you are in WI so maybe you can recommend where to get the 600 weight trans oil locally? Have a 1929 4 door has not been running for 30 years... in Mequon. Am going to try to start it tomorrow!!

Also... How do I find a 1929 drive shaft?
Tim Lynch
tlynch@mcw.edu

Hi there and welcome to Chevy Chatter II! Glad to have you with us!

For 600W oil go here: www.fillingstation.com. They have it and you can purchase the oil on line.

For a 1929 drive shaft, you can place an ad in the "Parts Wanted" section of Chevy Chatter II, or you can join the VCCA and place an ad for free in their monthly magazine the Generator & Distributor.

Tlynch.
What sort of checking and preparation have you carried out prior to starting an engine which hasn't run for such a long time?

1929 drive shafts are available new from Billypossom.
click on this link it will take you to there website.
http://www.billypossum.com/C&P_Catalog/C&P_Catalog_rev_031225.htm

C&P Automotive is an excellent place to purchase parts for your 1929. So is Gary Wallace. Here is his web site:

http://www.20schevyparts.com/

Thank you. I am overwhelmed at all the good suggestions... got more information in one posting that I got in years.

Tried unsuccessfully to start it today after lossening up the pistons with oil for a few weeks. Found 4 valve rods are stuck down. Sprayed under each boot with wd 40 and ?? hope they loosen up??

Tim


ps ... I don't really know where I should be asking questions.... the web site looks pretty complicated. Thank you all for the help.
VCCA 045819

...So you found some stuck valves, not unusual for one that has not been running for some time. I would say that you might try some PB Blaster penetrating fluid it will help dissolve the rust holding the valve inside the guides. without turning the engine over any more I remove the rockers and shafts check out all the pushrods and without taking the valve keepers off spray the PB Blaster on the valve springs and valve shafts then tap the valves with a deadblow or a brass hammer and get them freed up. after a week or so of soaking and tapping usually if the valves are servicable they will free up, if not pull the head, then pull the valve keepers and do a good inspection of the valves and head maybe do a valve job or take the head to a automotive machine shop for a rebuild. While the head is off get the carb cleaned up and a good kit installed.

By the way I checked your VCCA membership status and you now have VCCA Members only forum access.

Tim, you're asking your questions in the right place. But when you come onto the website if you click on "1929-1932", then click on "New Topic", it will open up a new thread for you to ask your question. Otherwise, your posting will be added onto whatever thread you have open, which may be a completely different topic (as it did with your last one, which was added to a thread about the Imperial Landau body style). Hope that helps. Welcome to Chevy Chatter II!

All the Best,

Chip

I just presumed on my part that the 1929 Convertible Landau Sedan was discontinued in the January-February 1929 time period after building 202 units in December in Flint. This afternoon I tried to find out more data on when the Convertible Landau Sedan, Fisher Body Job No. 8860, was actually replaced in production with the 1929 Imperial Sedan, Fisher Body No. 8910, in mid July 1929. The last listing I found of the Convertible Landau Sedan was in the June 8th issue of The Literary Digest that reported over 600,000 6 cylinders sold in less then 5 months. This is also the last advert for the Sport Cabriolet which was illustrated with the top down at the beach in “Trianon Blue” color. The Literary Digest for July 6, 1929 announced the 900,000 6 cyl was sold, with the Imperial Sedan and Sport Coupe listed. Then in several newspaper adverts it was announced that the 1,000,000 6 cyl was built on Aug 5 in Flint and it was an Imperial Sedan which had just gone into production a few week before. Then I found an newspaper advert for Saturday August 3rd that announced the 950,000 6 cyl sold and two distinguished new models … the Imperial Sedan and the Sport Coupe [replaced the Sport Cabriolet which was not offered until the 1931 models.] So from the above it looks like the Convertible Landau Sedan was build into June 1929. On August 3rd it stated that samples would be sent to the 5000 Chevrolet dealers. Now the 8,000 number seems possible.
kenK

Ken: Thanks to your research and from what you posted above, it definitely appears now that the body numbers between the cabriolet and the convertible landau were not combined....they were separate body numbers as suspected. We pretty much figured that the body numbers had to be exclusive to their own job numbers....otherwise there was no way of telling how many of each body style were made.

It now appears that the convertible landau was made until sometime in mid-1929 (June or July as you indicated), which would back up the high body numbers that we have seen on the cowl tags of existing cars, and which would also support the reason why vast numbers of this model still survive today. From the information that has now come forth from your research, I think that we can probably lay the rumor of the "300" convertible landaus to rest since that number is obviously bogus...as many of us have suspected for decades. And, it is entirely possible that there could have been more than 8,000 of that body style manufactured by Chevrolet when compared to the manufacturing numbers of Pontiac's counterpart in 1929.

Ken, thanks for your diligent research into this matter. It is extremely appreciated by those of us on Chevy Chatter II.

thanks guys for this post great research ,Just a question about the body serial number my 28 Convertable cabriolet has on the fire wall plaque the job number and then a body number but no plant prefix however the fisher boby numbers burnt into the woodwork under the seat the prefix"C "is there .I supose for the Cleveland plant I have noted this on most of the Convertable cabriolets is this the same with the Imperial landaus of 29, the only other reference to an assembly plant is on the brass chassis ID plate on the side of the seat where this sometimes has the plant prefix?

As an update, Mike McCagh's (a member here on CC II) convertible landau has a body number of 8101. So, from that, and Ken's research, we can now assume that at least 8,101 convertible landau's were made in 1929.

Is there info on Mike’s Body # 8101 Convertible Landau? It would be very helpful to chart out the engine serial #; the block cast date, and Body #. From David Dawn 1929 Research Project of about 60 cars/trucks, only one Convertible Landau Sedan, one Imperial Sedan, 2 Sport Cabriolet and adding #1098 & 8108 this is what we could chart:
ENGINE# CAST DATE CAR NO. JOB No. BODY NO.
180529 K 2 8 12AC 11851 8890 423 Sp Cab
? ? ? 8860 1098
? ? ? 8860 1278
? ? ? 8860 8101
? E 17 9 ? 8890 20578
1129478 H 16 9 21AC 88888 8910 J 1781 Imperial Sd

Please add to this chart known data and we will all see what actually happen?
kenK

Mike is usually on this site daily so if he picks up on this post he can supply the additional information. I do have his car serial number. It is 1AC 57848.

too cold here in Western Md to go to barn for the engine serial #, casting # and casting date. thought i had it on paper here in shop, but can't find. when weather breaks, will supply the #'s,mike

My car is #1098:
The block is an 835501, number 373535, casting date C29.The quality control identification is "Bowtie" 11.

I sure apprciate all the work going into this research.