VCCA Home Forums TECHNICAL - 1945 AND NEWER 1949-1954 Noob in need of some advice on 51 styleline deluxe

First of all Hello to all! I have been hitting a wall trying to get my new baby up and running. I cleaned the carb out (rochester) when i first got the car. Not knowing th Roch. the power piston was stuck and did not operate. The car ran and drove. Parked the car and went through the carb properly. Soaked, cleaned, poked, prodded everything was clean and operating..except the accel pump (single upstream ball) once again soaked etc carb is now the cleanest Rochester on the planet!! Everything works..piston moves with vacuum, pump..well..pumps etc. I also replaced the points, wires, plugs, cap and rotor. Set points to .017", intial timing to TDC and she will not run. Help..please winter is coming!

Also..I am having an issue with the starter. It will crank normal once and then slower and slower. I had it rebuilt and still the same thing happens. I put new bat wires and sanded all the grounds to still have the same issue. Could the 2 issues be related? I bought the car 3 months ago and only got to drive her for a couple of miles! Any input would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance!!

[quote= intial timing to TDC and she will not run. Help..please winter is coming! [/quote]
There is a top dead Center with the valves closed , this is where you need to set the distributor rotor to fire the #1 cylinder,and another top dead center where both valves are not closed, could it be that you timed to the wrong revolution?
About the starter problem is the battery being discharged after a while?

When at top dead center, make sure that the number one cylinder is on compression.

On the starter problem it sounds like your battery might be defective.

Yup, it fires on the comp. stroke. Middle of the rotor in the middle of the post at TCD (for a starting point). The battery is the second new one. It just doesnt make sense. It is such a simple system... I have to be missing something.

Thanks Junkyard dog.

Any other ideas? I am fresh out! Its a gorgeous day and Id rather be going for a cruise!

Does any cylinder fire? What happens when you give a short squirt of carburetor cleaner into the carb throat and then try to start it? If you have compression, spark, fuel and proper timing then it should fire, may not run but at least fire. What happens when you advance the distributor 10-15 degrees? It is a simple system so something unsuspected must be wrong.

If none of the above gets it to run or at least improve, measure the voltage at the coil + terminal while cranking. It should be 10+ volts. If too low then the spark will not be hot enough. You can also try cranking while checking the timing. If not close to the mark then make the adjustment.

That might be it! Battery voltage drops to 4-6volts while cranking. It drops very fast. From 7.4v 3-4 turns of the starter and its at 4-5v. On three "new" batteries...so far. I am suspecting a bad starter and its sucking the battery voltage down. So much for the rebuild! I will get the exact voltage at the coil + when i get home.

THANKS! Its terrible to have this car and just have to look at it!

If it turns out the be the starter take it back to the dudes that rebuilt it and suggest that they do it right.

Do you have the second new 6 volt battery/ What is it's advertised cranking amps? Do you have a set of SIX volt battery cables? Are you using a battery charger in between trys to recharge the battery? You are being untrue to your self if you think the 51 engine and ignition system is so simple. Ha! it takes exactly the same items to make the 51 run that it takes your 2009 gasoline auto to run. The difference is that you have to be your own computer, you have to do the calculating and fixing. Start over. What happens when you turn on the ignition and pull the choke and hit the starter button? Nothing?, no popping backfireing? Have you tried priming the fuel by spraying starting fluid down the carb? It don't take much to get action IF you are getting fire at the right time.

I do have 6v cables. Yes on the charger. It takes quite a bit more in todays fuel injection...most of us take it for ganted... ALOT more. It does nothing....well I cant say that...if it sat for a while, pull out choke, hit button, turn over (no start, wait for bat to charge and repeat (a couple of times) it would fire run pig rich for a while and shut off like the switch was turned off. Go to hit the starter and it will not fire again. If the charger is not on you only get one shot at the starter (about 4 sec). Amp gauge will flutuate between the center and the "c" when running. If you push the choke in instant stall. I may take off the top of the carb fill it with water and leave it outside for a while! It ran fine with everything all stuck and gummed up!

It is timed at TDC Compression stroke. The battery will have a full charge (7.2v) and one push of the button will discharge the battery to about 4.5 -5.5 volts. Im going out to try again tonight to get her going....I read about the starter busings for the armature. I doubt they were replaced (only took him half an hour to rebuild it) Does anyone know where I can find the bushings?

You can purchase the bushings at your local starter shop. They usually have a large supply of different sizes on hand.

Talked to the starter guy and the starter bushings were replaced. Ok, here are some results: Pulled the plugs, cleaned and turned over the engine to clear out the cyls. Turned engine to TDC on compression stroke. Aligned Rotor with socket for #1 cyl. Checked firing order 1,5,3,6,2,4 clockwise rotation. Points set at .017. Tried starting it,it kind of fired(lots of loud bacfire throught the carb) played with timing (both ways) and nothing. Set the points gap to .022 and she fired and ran reallll rough at about 2-2500 rpm (w/ throttle open). Had the wife hold the gas pedal and turned the dist. until she cleared up somewhat (reeeaall rich) Vacuum was at 17 inhg. Timing was at 35 deg adv. Started to backfire out the exhaust(big flames!) and stalled would not start again. I am out of ideas anyone want to buy a chevy!

Boy that description sure reminds me of timing that is 180 deg. out. I could be sure if I was there to actually see and hear it. It is also possible that the spark plug wires are one position off. Sure would try each to see what happens.

Same here....sounds like 180 degrees out. A friend of mine had a similar problem years ago. Went over to his house and did some checking. Found that he put the distributor in 180 degrees out. Pulled the distributor and reinstalled correctly. His old Chevy then ran like a dream.

I would not be surprised to see the volts at the battery drop to 4.5 volts while the starter is cranking the engine, however the battery should return to full voltage after you get off the starter. Lack of recovery signals a bad battery to me. Take the battery to a battery shop and have them load test it.

About that complicated fuel injection, do you realize how simple a TBI fuel injected engine is to trouble shoot the fuel system....I do, it is much more simple that troubleshooting a W1 or a Rochester model BCV.

Well...if you had the engine at TDC compression and the rotor was at the #1 cyl. then the dist is in correctly. Remember, dwell affects timing but timing doesn't affect dwell. I don't see where you replaced the condensor in the distributor....to me this sounds like the problem.

Battery tests good. yes trouble shooting newer stuff is easy compared to a roch...i know from firsthand experience! I was speaking more on the developmental side of it all. Alot goes into turning that key and having a very easy to drive engine. I write programs from scratch for high hp forced induction and road race cars. I would rather be doing that BUT this car has to stay original. So.....trouble shooting the carb, ign and charging sys is all i have. Its killing me that it just wont run. Anyone have a scan tool for a 51 Chevy? HA HA! How about cam timing? Are the timing sets prone to failure? The compression is good right to tdc when turning by hand. There is a show this weekend and I would love to make it!

I did replace the condensor. Now...that is another question there are 2 condensors. One on the coil and one in the distributor. Is this correct? I havent seen a car with 2 before and it seemed strange but I spoke with a guy at the last show that said his also had 2. Thanks for reminding me about that!

The cam-crank timing is gears. They can fail but because most have one fiber and other steel failure means the cam does not turn. There are replacements that have both metal but even there failure is most often total. Not like the timing chains that can jump a tooth. It is possible to get the gears set wrong and even one tooth off makes them run bad but they will run. Doubt that cam timing is your problem but could be. It is relatively easy to check by measuring the rocker position on no. 1 cylinder compared to the crank rotation. Start with TDC, mark the crank with a line, put another opposite side of front pulley, then half way in between the marks then half way between each of them. Now you have marks each 22.5 degrees. When you rotate the crank and measure max lift you can estimate within a couple of degrees which is good enough for a gross check.

Two condensers are used for cars with radios to help eliminate ignition noise in the radio. It is critical for the outside case of the ignition condenser (on distributor) to be grounded. Otherwise you get a weak spark. I assume you have checked the spark numerous times and get a "blue snapping" spark.

See that you learn something new everyday! Now only one of the condensers are new. I have a second new condenser If i eliminate one (there is no radio) there is not an issue. I will try that and regrounding the block (again!) and see what happens. Spark is blue but not quite snapping. Seamed a little weak last night. I really appreciate all of the input. Sometimes it takes an outside view when the frustration level reaches critical. I hope to have good news for all tomorrow!

Ok..here are the results:
6.9v at the coil and battery (after charge)
only one (new) condenser
timing set at TDC
mixture screw 2 turns out(180 deg turns)
idle screw 2 turns in (after hitting stop)
51 main jet in the Rochester.
20" vac at high idle, 17" vac choke in 1/3 of the way
choke out..and it started (after second try) ran nice and smooth at high idle. I let it warm up until about 1/8 inch from the center line on the gauge. Started to push the choke in (about 1/3 of the way) and it started going south. It started to stumble and blowing alot of black smoke out the tailpipe. Pulled choke back out and reved a couple of times and good again. Pushed in choke again and sputter, and smoke out the back and it stalled and would not start again. Sorry for the long posts. I just need to get this car up and running for the sake of sanity!

This sounds kinda crazy but could the choke wire be hooked up backwards, don't know it it is possibleor maybe the choke wire is damaged? Can you do a visual check? choke pushed in choke flapper should be verticle and not restrick the air intake and of course the choke flapper should be almost horizontal when the choke knob is pulled out.

Right now I am trying to figure out a situation where the carb will flood with the choke open and the throttle at an midrange or fast idle. Are you running the engine with the air cleaner in place and tightened up on the carb top?

Also if one of the condensers is shorted internally it will completely kill the spark. Until you get the car running disconnect and remove the outside condenser, you may want to check it with a good analog multimeter that has at least a 100K ohm scale. Do you know how to check for a continuity kick on a condenser? connect the leads of the ohm meter (100K ohm scale)to the condenser terminal and case then quickly reverse the leads and you should get a capacitance kick on the needle if the condenser is good.

Thanks MrMack. Choke is working properly. Checked it. I also looked down the carb while cranking and didnt see any fuel spilling into the carb throat. The gasket between the top and base looked wet in the throat but no flow. The air cleaner is not on. Car will run with choke completely closing the carb top as soon as you start to open it it will run extremely rich, stall and not start. I sprayed around the carb, manifold for vac leaks.It also acts as if the accel pump is not working..but it gives a good shot when you stab the pedal. I just dont know.