VCCA Home Forums TECHNICAL - 1945 AND EARLIER 1912-1928 non detergent oil????????????

hi

please, what type of oil do you use, is it non detergent straight weight ?

thanks
ken

I use 10W-30 Non-Detergent in all my vintage vehicles. Just need to change it every so often and flush with kerosene so the sediment doesn't build up.
Oil is available at a variety of stores that specialize in antique vehicles.

I have used 10W30 Detergent oil in all my vehicles and have for several years with no problems. Unes it in a 1927-1930-1931-1940-1951-1954-1965-1974 and my modern vehicles. Don't get me wrong. I don't have all these vehicles at present but I have been in the hobby since 1961. The 1927-1930-1931-1940 did not have filters.

I prefer 10W-30 also. Would not suggest flushing with kerosene (and Chevrolet didn't either) because if its a dirty engine it could loosen chunks of sludge.
The detergent oil will not remove sludge but will help to disolve it and hold future sludge causing products in suspension.
All 10w-30 oil is HIGH dertergent.

I also prefer 10W-30 detergent oil. Been using it for decades. Also, I'm with Chev Nut on not flushing your engine with Kerosene.

:) :grin:

The others may not agree with me, but in all my old vehicles that do not have filters I use straight Non Detergent 40 wt in summer or non detergent 30 wt in cold weather. If the engine called for "heavy" cylinder oil 40 wt is the closest thing to that (which back in the day was closer to 50wt). "Medium" weight oil is about 30 wt in SAE. The reason I used Non Detergent is simple. The soot particals and metal bits that normally wear off parts will settle to the bottom of the oil pan over night and the oil basicly self cleans itself. The crud stays put in the pan and wont recirculate back through the engine. Detergent oil helps suspend those particals so the filter can gather them up. Most mauals on early vehicals tell you to change the oil every 500 miles. They also say to remove the oil pan and clean out the crud as often as twice a year. That is so the oil pump pickup tube won't get blocked off buy muck. Any old engine that has sat for a while even in running condition should have the pan cleaned out before using it much so the oil pump can do its job and not starve out at high speeds. Even 28 chevys that have a filter, not all of the oil gets filtered on the way to the bearings, just a percentage of it gets cleaned. By the way congradulations on your new car! If you get it running good, bring it down the the Newport Hillclimb the first weekend of Oct. Lot of neat old Chevys and others and it is fun to watch them take on the hill. Newport is on the western side of Indiana south of Danville IL so it isn't that far from Chicago.

(IMHO), using non-detergent oil because the crud from it and all the nasty products of low compression engines all settles permanently in the bottom of the oil pan when the engine is shut down isn't a good reason, and probably isn't very true. There are many other places in your engine that will get nasty and crudded up from non-detergent oil. When the 30 wt. high-detergent oil I use gets really black I drain it out hot and replace it with new clean oil, and the engine stays sparkling clean inside without any need for flushing the crankcase.

Don't leave the crud inside the engine, drain it out!

Using #30 in the winter and #40 in the summer...unless its an old worn out engine I would never use such heavy oils. In this part of the country it would never turn over in winter with #30 and if it did the bearings would never receive any oil for the first 10 minutes. Chevrolet also has warned against using #40 oil at any time.
Detergent oil will not keep "metal" in suspension as it is not "dirt"....
MrMack-.And what are the products of a low compression engine that are different from a high compression engine? I would think that hte high compression engine would have more "blow-by" and more back pressure blown past the rings into the pan.

Gentlemen keep in mind that although these engines had oil pumps; the oil pumps only pumped oil into troughs where the connecting rod dippers would splash the oil around in a mist to keep the bearings rods, pistons and cam lubed. The lighter the oil the better for a splash system. Also modern light oils will adhere to the bearings better than straight 30 oil did back in the '20's. 10W30 detergent oil will work ok for your entire driving season.

And there is no pressure to the mains. Gravity is all that draws the oil through the bearings.

Gene,

I have been using "high mileage" 10W30 oil in my '37. If I drive the car without warming up the engine, I have very high oil pressure for the first couple of miles. To me, this indicates that the oil pump is working very hard. Am I starving the bearings by driving with a cold engine. Once warmed up, the pressure drops. At cruise speed, I am in the middle of the range on the gauge, at idle, not much pressure indicated, but I have been told that is normal.

Thanks,

Rich

I wouldn't go so far as to say you starve the bearings by driving the engine cold but I would say that the bearings and other internal parts are better served by allowing the engine to idle a few minutes before driving off. This allows the oil to warm a little, thinning it some. Warm, thinner oil will get into tight places better than a cold, thicker oil. It also gives the oil time to circulate to the further locations.

I always allow my engines to idle at least a few minutes before driving them from a cold start.

Bill,

That sounds like what I do too. By the time I start the car and then back out, close the garage door, mess around a little, the engine has run for at least a few minutes. What I do notice is that I have higher than normal oil pressure for the first few miles. It will peg at 35 MPH, but after a few miles, I have about 15 PSI at 35 MPH, about 20+ PSI at 50 MPH and about 6-7 PSI at idle when hot.

Rich

Rich that's normal even for todays engines. As the oil gets hotter it thins out and the pump has to go faster to keep the pressure high. It really doesn't matter if you have 10 or 50 PSI of oil pressure. All that counts is that you have good oil flow getting to all the parts that need it. When manufactures went to the oil light drivers never knew there wasn't oil pressure until it's too late. Most oil pressure switches don't come on until pressure drops below three PSI. The oil gauge on my early '26 only goes up to 10 PSI. So don't worry; everything is normal.

Rich, You pressure is normal. I usually keep my speed down til the engine (oil) warms up. Drive just slow enoungh to keep the needle below the 30 pound mark This isn't too criticle in summer but important in winter.
The normal HOT oil presure for a 1937-39 with the 4.22 rear end is 13 pounds at 50 MPH. This is controlled by the spring in the oil distributor valve. The pressure can go down to 3 or 4 pounds at a hot idle. I have found that it takes about 1/2 hour to get the oil fully hot..
The 1940 oil pump had longer gears and will hold about 7 pounds pressure at a hot idle. Chevrolets main idea here was to get more oil flow at low engine speeds and when the engine under load.
Chevrolet also claimed that the rod bearings got instant lubrication at the first turn of the engine. The rods pick up cold oil better than a car with full pressure oiling (when cold).

Gentlemen,

Thanks for the confirmation that my oil pressure is in the normal range. As to oil changes, Bob notes (above) that most early cars had a recomendation in their manuals to change oil every 500 miles. In my manual, is says "The frequency with which the oil should be changed, subsequent to the change at the end of the first 500 miles, is governed by the mechanical condition of the car and on how carefully you, as a driver, handle it and care for it. Oil changes may be required more frequently in the winter than in summer, due to the necessity for using the choke during the winter months. The excessive use of the choke causes crankcase dilution."

Frankly, this is not a very helpful indication of how often the oil should be changed. I am approaching the first 1,000 miles that I have put on the car. I did change at about 500 miles. Right now, the oil looks just as clean as it did when I put it in a few months ago. Since the oil change, I have added some oil, but less than a quart.

Because I have never removed the pan and the engine has never been rebuilt, I am considering another change soon and will likely remove the pan this winter to see just how much crud is in there, and to check the clearances on the rod and main bearings.

Back to oil change issues. I believe that this car has 52,000 miles on it. It starts and runs good and compression is 75 psi at my elevation (that would be about 93 psi at sea level. I believe new the engine was 112 psi.) It is either 52,000 or 152,000, but I doubt that it would be in this good of condition if the latter. I do have a filter and have changed it when I changed the oil. I like the idea of having clean fresh oil in this old engine. The oil change interval that I have been considering is every 1,000 miles, does that seem reasonable?

Rich

Dear Rich,

For most of us an oil change is once a year, in the fall before the car sits all winter. Doesn't matter if you do 100 miles or 1,200.

Chevy50Jim

Most manuals say to change oil every 2000 to 3000 miles under ideal conditions. Years ago I changed mine evry 1000 except when on extended trips. 500 miles would have been for winter/short trip driving. I have run my 39 and 50 2000 to 3000 miles on long tours with the good modern 10W-30 oils.
Other wise I change oil every fall if up to 500 miles, if less every other year.

Jim,

Do I know you?

Anyway, I figure that I will log at least 2,000 or more miles per year. Unlike some of the members, I only have one vintage car to drive and the closer it comes to completion, the more I have enjoyed driving it. I don't figure on letting is sit in the garage all winter. After all, it does have a good heater, I just won't drive it on snowy roads until I figure out how the anti-lock brakes and the computer controlled traction system work.

I want to take good care of it, but don't want to be afraid to put some miles on it. Oil is cheap and I want to make sure that I am doing the right thing.

Thanks for your input,

Rich

Rich modern oil is like night and day compared to the oil that was around when our cars were new. They handle the higher and freezing temperatures . They also have adatives that can handle the corosive acids and keep the engine dirt and grime in suspension longer. My car doesn't have a filter, so I change it every year. I don't put 200 miles on it a year. So remember you are looking at specs. from a time when lubricants were in their infancy. Change it every year before putting it away for the winter.

While the oil will "last" for 2000 miles I would change twice a year if it were my one and only car. The exception would be if it were a 2000 trip. I buy my oil when its on sale and usually pay from 50 cents to 79 cents a Qt. with a rebate. The high milage oil really isn't necessary and rather expensine. It does have more seal sweller than reg. oils but there are no neoprene seals in a 1937 unless a newer timing cover seal has been insatlled. From what you indiacte you could run the oil til its down to the add line (1 1/2 Qt low) and then change it.
At over 50,000 miles, not using an excessive amount of oil, etc, I would bet the engine has been overhauled once in its life. Most required an overhaul by 40,000 miles unless they were driven mostly at higher speeds and longer distances....or would have been run on an oil that is as good as what we have today.

Gene,

I am amazed that you feel the engine has likely been overhauled at least once. Were these old dogs really that fragile? If you are correct that the engine had been overhauled at 40K, at 50K wouldn't I have higher compression?

Is there any way to verify if the engine has been worked on? With modern lubricants, an oil filter, good air filter, and better fuel, will these engines experience a lower rate of wear than they did back in the '30's & '40's?

I have decided to pull the pan this winter and check the clearances on the rod and main bearings. If I find them in good condition, or with the removal of shims, can keep them in tolerance should I also be looking at the piston rings and valve's?

Regarding the "high mileage" oil, I did not know that the enhancement was to help leaky seals. My car does leak a little, but from what I gather, it is not nearly as bad as some cars.

Modern engines can easily go past 200K, I just never thought that these old engines would suffer so much wear that an overhaul would be required at less than 50K.

Rich

To determine if the engine has been overhauled at one time-
Necessary to disassemble and see if it still has the original rings, Original rings had no expanders behind them and the oil ring was a one piece ring with slots or tiny holes for oil drain back. These slots or holes would fill with carbon easily and cause excessive oil consumption. Just look at automotive magazines from the '30's and '40's and see all the ads for replacement rings.
Piston wrist pin size. The wrist pins would be loose and clucking at idle apeed by 40,000 miles. If a good overhaul was done they would be replaced with one of the oversizes available.
Number of shims lest in the rod and main bearings would be an indication of how many times they were adjusted.
On a 1937 - if the exhaust valves still have the slots in them and the GM name. 1937 last year of the slots.
Chevrolet always could be overhaules two or three times during its life. Many makes required a complete rebuild dur their life (rebore-grind crankshaft, etc).
Generally engines that were driven at higher speeds and for longer distances AND HAD THE OL CHANGED as required would last twice as long.
No t too many cars exceeded 100,000 miles back then. Many of the old cars that remain today were cars that had very limited low speed drivning.
Don't believe the odoamter. So many speedometers were set back years ago and cars were driven with their speedometers disconnected during WW II. If you had an A ration sticker during the war your milage was recorded and an inspection made every year. If you driving (milage) exceeded what the alotted 3 or 4 gallons of gas a week would have allowed they knew that you were getting black market gas and you could get in trouble.
When I began my dealership life in 1950 it wasnot uncommon to overhaul 1946-47 engines at between 35,000 and 50,000 miles. There was a sign in the shop advertising the price.
Engine overhaul,, replace rings, fit new pins, adjust rod and main bearings, grind valves,clean carbon and sludge, tune engine $77.00. If valves or other parts required, extra charge.
Due to some engine and oil improvements the 1948 and up engines semed to last a little longer. There again it depended how the car was driven and maintained.

Gene,

Thanks for the history lesson. By the way, if the $77 offer is still good, please schedule me for an overhaul.

Rich

I use Castrol 40 on mine and that has been that way for tehe last 20 years