VCCA Home Forums TECHNICAL - 1945 AND EARLIER 1929-1932 Oil Choice for the 32

When I had my engine rebuilt, I believe the rebuilder told me to use multi-weight 10-30 detergent oil. When the engine was previously rebuilt, my father only used non-detergent 30 weight. The reasoning behind this was without an oil filter, it was better to let pollutants fall to the bottom of the pan and not stay in suspension. What are your thoughts on this....I'm sure there will be many. Thanks in advance.

Your rebuilder gave you the best advice....for your new clean engine.Without detergent the "dirt" sticks to the engine parts...with detergent in drains out with the old oil.

How about whether to use a multi-weight oil or a straight 30 weight???

As Gene mentioned in the above posting, go with the multi-weight oil.

:) :grin:

The multi-vis oil will give better protection than single weight particularly for a freshly rebuilt engine. The piston pins and cylinder walls are lubricated by oil splashed by the dippers. If the oil is too thick (viscous) then the spray will be larger drops and not lubricate as effectively. It is the oil mist that you are needing inside the crankcase. As Gene wrote above it is far better to drain the dirt, sludge and other crud out than have it accumulate in the pan, oil passages, etc. Just think about it? Do you want to take a bath in a dirty tub? Me neither.

For break in you want the lightest oil possible, especially when engine is cold.The engines came from the factory with #10 oil and thats what we would put in a fresh overhaul job.With the 10-30 h you will have the heaiver oil when hot.Even 5W-30 would be great for the first 500 miles.
#30 is OK after 2000 miles if -the temperature is over 80 degrees and the engine is run for over 1/2 hour at a time,such as on long trips,etc.

It is fairly easy to get really heated up in discussing oil for old engines. The key is whether the engine has been cleaned and rebuilt or just an old engine. If it hasn't been cleaned, you really need to use nondetergent oil and change it a couple of time a year, regardless of mileage. If you have a clean engine, you still have old style bearings, probably babbet, that can't handle new oils. For my '32, I have switched to Shell Rotella T 15W-40 which has an SL rating for gasoline engines, but doesn't seem to have anything damaging to old engines. Shell Rotella is what most people use in their diesel engines.

Shell Rotella is a very high detergent Diesel oil.Detergent does not harm the babbit material, in fact its protects the babbit from acid damage.I have used nothing but the latest detergent oils in my cars for the last 30 years with no problem.All bearings have some form of a babbit lining on the bearings including the modern cars, they just have a thinner layer.

Chev Nut is correct. The poured babbit bearings have no problems with the new detergent oils.

:) :grin:

The Diesel rated oils do contain more sulfur which could harm old lead babbit.

After driving our 31 for 30 years with non detergent oil I considered changing to 10W30 detergent. I read in one of my car magazines not to do it all at once.

When I changed my oil I used 2 quarts of detergent and three quarts of non detergent. No problem.

The next oil change I used four detergent 10W30 and one quart non detergent.

The third oil change I went to all 10W30 detergent. No problems in another 15 years.

I did the same in my Model A as well as my brother's. I was always told I couldn't switch but after reading the article I thought I would try it. No problems. It worked for me.

For this discussion should you avoid using synthetic oil at any point or does it not make any difference?

Any opinions on using synthetic oil in a 'broke-in' engine, pros and cons?

Subject has already been covered.

The new diesel oil for "07" engines has been reformulated and may be of interest to the old car habbyist as it is designed to keep a greater volume of soot in suspension.This may help with older engines to keep the formation of sludge down as more soot will now be removed when the oil is changed.

Thanks for the help Ray.

The comments to my earlier cautionary note were mostly negative so I will attach something that had caused me some original alarm :

By: Keith Ansell, Foreign Parts Positively, Inc.

About a year ago I read about the reduction of zinc dialykl dithiophosphate (ZDDP) in the oils supplied with API approval that could affect sliding and high pressure (EP) friction in our cars. The reduction of these chemicals in supplied oil was based on the fact that zinc, manganese and/or phosphates reduce the effectiveness and eventually damage catalytic converters and introduce minute amounts of pollutants into our atmosphere.

A month or so ago I had a member of the Columbia Gorge MG Club bring a totally failed camshaft and lifters back to me that had only 900 miles on them!! I immediately contacted the camshaft re-grinder and asked how this could happen. They were well aware of this problem as they were starting to have many failures of this type. In the past, the lack of a molybdenum disulfide camshaft assembly lubricant, at assembly, was about the only thing that could create this type of problem. My customer has assembled many engines and had lubricated the camshaft properly.

This got me on the phone to Delta Camshaft, one of our major suppliers. Then the bad news came out: It"s today"s "modern" API (American Petroleum Industry) approved oils that are killing our engines. Meaning all flat tappet (cam follower) equipped engines as used in MG, Triumph, Austin, all BMC products, all British Leyland products, early Volvos, American hi-performance engines and many others.

Next call: To a major camshaft supplier, both stock and performance (Crane). They now have an additive for whatever oil you are using during break-in so that the camshaft and lifters won"t fail in an unreasonably short period of time. They also suggest using a diesel rated oil on flat tappet engines.

Next call: To a racing oil manufacturer that we use for the race cars (Redline). Their response: "We are well aware of the problem and we still use the correct amounts of those additives in our products". They continued to tell me they are not producing API approved oils so they don"t have to test and comply. Their oils were NOT the "new, improved and approved" ones that destroy flat tappet engines! "We just build the best lubricants possible". Sounds stupid, doesn"t it, New-Approved but inferior products, but it seems to be true for our cars.

To top this off: Our representative from a major supplier of performance and street engine parts (EPWI) stopped by to "warn us" of the problem of the NEW oils on flat tappet engines. This was a call that the representative was making only because of this problem to warn their engine builders! "The reduction of the zinc, manganese and phosphates are causing very early destruction of cams and followers". They are recommending that, for now at least, there must be a proper oil additive put in the first oil used on new engines, beyond the liberal use of molydisulfide assembly lube. They have been told that the first oil is the time the additives are needed but remain skeptical that the first change is all that is necessary. Their statement: Use diesel rated oils such as Delo or Rotella that are usually available at auto stores and gas stations.

This problem is BIG! American Engine Rebuilder"s Association (AERA) Bulletin #TB2333 directly addresses this problem. I had a short discussion with their engineer and he agreed with all that I had been finding.

Next phone call was to a retired engineer from Clevite, a major bearing and component manufacturer. First surprise was that he restored older British Motor bikes. The second surprise was that he was "VERY" aware of this problem because many of the old bikes had rectangular tappets that couldn"t rotate and are having a very large problem with the new oils. He has written an article for the British Bike community that verify all the "bad news" we have been finding.

Comp Cams put out "#225 Tech Bulletin: Flat Tappet Camshafts". They have both an assembly lube and an oil additive. The telling sentence in the bulletin was "While this additive was originally developed specifically for break-in protection, subsequent testing has proven the durability benefits of its long term use. This special blend of additives promotes proper break-in and protects against premature cam and lifter failure by replacing some of the beneficial ingredients that the oil companies have been required to remove from the off-the-shelf oil".

Next question: Now what do we do?

>From the camshaft re-grinders (DeltaCam) "Use oils rated for diesel use", Delo (Standard Oil product) was named. About the same price as other quality petroleum based oils. They are not API formulated and have the ZDDP we need in weights we are familiar with.

>From one camshaft manufacturer (Crane): "use our additive" for the first 500 miles.

>From General Motors (Chevrolet): add EOS, their oil fortifier, to your oil, it"s only about $14.00 for each oil change for an 8-ounce can (This problem seems to be something GM has known about for some time!). The additive says for break-in only, some dealers add it to every oil change.

>From Redline Oil: Use our street formulated synthetics. They have what we need!

From Castrol: We are beginning to see a pattern emerging on older cars. It may be advantageous to use a non-approved lubricant, such as oils that are Diesel rated, 4 Cycle Motorcycle oils and other specified diesel oils.

Oil is Killing our cars Part II

Last month"s report on this subject is turning out to be just the tip of the iceberg! Many publications have had this subject of zinc-dialkyl-dithiophosphate (ZDDP) covered in varying depths over the last few months. Some publications have even had conflicting stories when you compare one month"s article with their next month"s article! They are all ending up supporting our report.


Now for the latest report:

#1 Castrol GTX 20W-50 is still good for our cars after break-in! 10W-40, 10W-30 and other grades are NOT good. Absolute NOT GOOD for any oil (Any Brand) that is marked "Energy Conserving" in the API "Donut" on the bottle, these oils are so low with ZDDP or other additives that they will destroy our cams. Virtually all "Diesel" rated oils are acceptable. (See third article to amend this!)

#2 Castrol HD 30 is a very good oil for break-in of new motors. This oil has one of the largest concentrations of ZDDP and Moly to conserve our cams and tappets. (SEE THIRD ARTICLE...This oil is NOT now recommended by Castrol)

#3 Only an unusual Castrol Syntec 20W-50 approaches the levels of protection we need when we look to the better synthetic lubricants. We are attempting to get this oil but will be using Redline 10W-40 or 10W-30 as these are lighter weights for better performance, flow volume, less drag and has the additive package we need.

#4 The trend today is to lighter weight oils to decrease drag, which increases mileage. Most of these seem to be the "Energy Conservation" oils that we cannot use.

#5 Redline oil and others are suggesting a 3,000-mile break-in for new engines! Proper seating of rings, with today"s lubricants is taking that long to properly seal. Shifting to synthetics before that time will just burn a lot of oil and not run as well as hoped.

#6 The "Energy Conservation" trend was first lead by automakers to increase mileage numbers and secondly because the ZDDP and other chemicals degrade the catalytic converter after extended miles, increasing pollution. We don"t have catalytic converters and the mileage gains are not that significant for most of us.

For you science buffs: ZDDP is a single polar molecule that is attracted to Iron based metals. The one polar end tends to "Stand" the molecule up on the metal surface that it is bonded to by heat and friction. This forms a sacrificial layer to protect the base metal of the cam and tappet from contacting each other. Only at very high pressures on a flat tappet cam is this necessary because the oil is squeezed/wiped from the surface. This high pressure is also present on the gudgeon pin (wrist pin) in diesel engines, therefore the need for ZDDP in all diesel engines.

Second part of the equation is Molybdenum disulfide (Moly). The moly bonds to the zinc adding an additional, very slippery, sacrificial layer to the metal. I found out that too much of the moly will create problems; lack of this material reduces the effectiveness of the ZDDP. The percentage, by weight is from .01 to .02%, not much, but necessary.


First is that there is a problem, lack of ZDDP (Zinc Dialkyl DithioPhosphate) in modern oils kills at least our cams and tappets There seems to be no known alternative.

Second, our cars are a small percentage of the total market and BIG Corporate, the American Petroleum Institute and possibly government have made decisions that are detrimental to our cars. This problem isn"t going away.

Third, that many oil companies may have products that will continue to function well in our cars. Castrol, Redline, Valvoline, Mobil, Amsoil and others have now commented on my original article and are making suggestions. For some companies they are offering short lists of "acceptable" oils, others just one. One company has responded without any substantive information in a two-page "bulletin". By their account all their oils are superior and applicable. This is typical of most larger companies.

Fourth, some oil manufacturers are pointing to metallurgy, blaming poorly built cams and followers. This may have some validity but the bottom line is that there has been a big increase in failures with products that have been on the market with identical products that are now having greatly increased failures. To me the bottom line is, if the lubricants are working there is no contact between surfaces, it shouldn"t matter what the materials are, within reason.

Sam,
Thanks for the article posted above. It at least gets us to thinking.

I have recently purchased Shell Rotella T, diesel grade oil that is API rated SM which I was told was the newest grade with less ZDDP. Since the formula for additives is not on the bottle how do we determine if the oils do indeed have the necessary amount? I used some older 10W-30 in my recently rebuilt '31 engine. Being a SL grade it should have the zinc. What was used when these engines were first built? Don't think that ZDDP or other similar zinc compounds were available in the 30s.

I have read with great interest the thread concerning oil. I have a 32 which had the engine rebuilt. The car has very few miles but the age of the oil is quite old. Too embarrased to say how old.

I put 30 weight non detergent in when the engine was rebuilt. Now I want to change the oil and use detergent oil. I will do the change gradually as Jim K suggested. Now what to use!!!!!

I visited a local parts house and read almost every different can of oil on the shelf, and took notes. The sales people thought I was nuts. Not the first time that has happened.

Shell has a ND 30 oil with a SB rating. I assume that would be OK for the ND oil.

Castrol makes a 10W30 "High Mileage" which says it meets API SM,SL, SJ.

Mobil makes a 10W40 "Clean 500" designated as SM/CF, which says it is OK for diesel.

It seemed to me from what I understand, if it is OK for diesel then it is good for my engine. The thing that bothers me is the viscosity rating. It seems if my "base" oil is 30W then I don't want a multiviscosity over 30. Is this correct?

Thanks

Can you find a #30 for SM?..That would be fine for a 1932 in hot weather. The 10W-40 SM would not be a bad choice either. Just wouldn't recommend a straight #40.
Otherwise for the low lifter/camshaft load of a pre 1954 car the SL oils would be perfectly adquate. Would be better than a non-detergent oil that has no additives and 1000 times better than the oils were in 1932 - and they never had camshaft problems back then.