VCCA Home Forums GENERAL DISCUSSION VCCA Judging Questions Motions No. 06-32 and 06-33

I would like the BOD to pass both motions 06-32 and 06-33.

I would like the board to go one step further and have the judging rules the same for all Divisional Meets and Anniversary Meets.

I have never understood the logic of having two different sets of judging rules. One for Anniversary Meets and the other for Divisional Meets.

My understanding is that the judging rules are the same and what is different is the awards system. Aside from the "Best of Show", HPCOF and Preservation categories, anniverary meets have only 1st, 2nd and 3rd in the classes while regional meets have 1st Jr, 2nd Jr, 3rd Jr, 1st Senior, 2nd Senior, 3rd Senior for each class.

Jim

I guess I should have said that all judging should be the same. Same classes, same awards. No difference between Divisional Meets and Anniversary Meets.

I agree. It should be one awards system throughout.

Jim

If that were to happen then the "special" nature of the Anniv. Meets would be lost. It would just be another meet but only held each 5 years.

The only concern that I have about the Anniversary Meet and awarding First, Second and Third Place awards is this. If you bring a car or truck to an Anniversary Meet and you are the only one in your class, you automatically win first place. You would win first place even if you only get 700 points on your judging sheet ( or less ).
Somehow, that does not seem quite right.

It is possible to have both, head to head for the highest three vehicles and also offer National Awards based on scores for the award being sought. Example There are five cars in a class three cars are seeking first Junior, one is Junior seeking a senior and one is a repeat preservation. The Best three cars the two of the cars that were seeking the first Junior, and the repeat preservation. The scores were 988, 980, and 978. They are the first second and third The other car seeking a Junior scored 975 and will receive a First Junior, but no other award at the meet, the car seeking the Senior scored 910 and receives an oval. It still can be unique and still be the only meet where the classes are by each year.
John Mahoney

The "Special" nature of the Anniversary Meet would still be a longer meet, more and better tours, more and better seminars, and going to a different area of the country.

It is just my opinion but the different judging does not make the Anniversary Meets better but it does add to some confusion. I don't believe judging is what brings people to the Anniversary Meets.

With Judging the same as all Divisional Meets the folks that live in the out of the way places, that do not have the shorter Divisional Meets to attend, would have the opportunity to be awarded Junior, Senior, or Preservation Awards/ Ovals.

There are many VCCA judged car shows that are only one day. People will not drive hundreds of miles for a one day show. An example of this is that a region in California requested an exception to the rule of one meet per area per year for the reason of travel. As I understand it the problem was traveling from one area of the state to another. That exception was granted.

I know of one car club that only has one jud

I think the Club and the meet chairs have done a good job of setting up the special awards methods at the 45th Anniversary meet, and that it should be a little different than a meet for show and judging awards, if they can incorporate both systems...go for it.

The judging for all "National" and Anniversary Meets are the same. The process, criteria and form are all identical. It has always been that way.

It is the awards that are different. It is very confusing and inaccurate to contend that the judging is somehow different.

I say "Special" because many people target the Anniversary Meets for the initial display of a restoration. It is the Meet where competition is normally the keenest. In the past most Anniversary Meets have been structured the same as the Middle West meets with a Tuesday … Friday schedule and one major tour day. That was essentially the same at Grand Junction. So the only significant difference is the number of registrants.

I see two problems with John’s suggestion. First is the time it takes to present the awards at the ending banquet. Thought it would not take twice the time to present both 1-3 and then Junior, Senior, Preservation awards it surely would take more. If Grand Junction is an example, with ~100 vehicles judged and twice that number only displayed. The other is giving the impression that it is only a bigger Area type meet (like Middle West). If members feel that way then how many will travel thousands of miles to attend?

The VCCA already has a problem with people stepping forward to plan and execute Meets. It was also the case with the 45th Anniv. Meet. If we downgrade the Anniversary Meet then it will make it harder to get the necessary leadership. I suspect that the 50th will not be a problem but the 55th surely will be. In fact I will not be surprised if there was no 55th.

I am just wondering why some long time members did not attend the GJ Meet? Wasn’t it “Special” enough?

Why didn't I attend you ask.

I didn't read anything in the G & D that sparked my interest.

I didn't want to add 3,000 miles to my car and take two weeks to do it.

I have spent several vacations in Colorado and had no desire to return.

My schedule was filled with the Early Six Cylinder Chevrolet Tour, two VMCCA Tours, three AACA Tours, and the VCCA Central Meet.

To me the Anniversary Meets I have attended and worked on are nothing more than a larger Central Meet or Middle West Meet with some different people, different location.

I don't know what the answer is but we must be missing something when the Model A Club can draw over 800 registrations every year and they only represent four years of vehicles.

And cost is a big factor too! Many people in the VCCA, believe it or not, don't have the cash flow or the time available to drive 1,000 or 2,000 miles one way to an Anniversary Meet, pay for motels for a week and a half, food, the high price of gas, the registration fee, and etc.

:( :( :(

Amen...

That is a fact about the cost. I met several members at G.J. That flew in, and had to bum rides everywhere there was an event. I don't think I would go if that had to be the case for me. I have just as much enjoyment at the Area 6 sponcered events. and don't spend half as much money. The 45th Anniversary meeting staff had their hands full, then to top off the events, several deadbeat members?, took advantage of the strained security and caused problems that gave some of the paying members a bad view of the club as a whole. and the awards dinner didn't come close to giving enough recognition to those that worked the event, due to the length of time it would have taken.

I believe that I would rather spend my time and money attending a different area of the country's National meet & shows every year and skip the Anniversary meet held every 5 years. I also probably will either drive a later model Vintage Chevrolet with power and air or modern iron, rather than driving or trailering an older car.

We need to plan events for the older cars all around the country rather than everyone trying to attend a single National Four cylinder tour in the mountains.(IMHO)

Mr. Mack has some good points to discuss. The Anniversary Meet might be too far and/or too expensive for most of us to attend. An idea has come to me to consider having Regional Meets every five years instead of an Anniversary Meet. Before all of you want to kick me out of town, and elsewhere, consider a Western Regional, Eastern Regional, Central and South? If we would have had a celebration out east, midwest, west and south or southeast would more people have attended those instead of asking all of us to go to Grand Jct., Co? I am basing this on the AACA model. I feel that Flint for 2011 or 2012 is special and all of us need to come together for that, once in a lifetime event. However, after 2011, maybe we should consider offering National Regional meets. This motion came to us a few years ago at the National Board meeting but we didn't quite grasp the concept. I feel we have a better idea now. As our membership has gotten older I feel we can not expect them to travel more than 6 to 7 hundred miles for a meet. It puts a strain on the person and the vehicles. What do you all feel about this? Happy Holidays.

Steve

Steve,

Just to clarify.....

If I understand you correctly, you're saying the once every five year "natl" meet in one location (like the meets that were in GJ, Springfield, Rapid City, etc.) would become FOUR "natl" meets in four different geographic locations?? Sort of four separate national meets... one in each of the 4 (general) areas of north, south, east and west?? And like the current natl meet scheduling, this would happen every five years, taking the place of the one natl meet.....

Before I even throw in my 2 cents, I want to be sure that's what you're saying.....

Bill.

I'm in favor of Steve's proposal.......three or four geographical National Meets every five years would be cool. Sure would save a lot of time and money for the average club member. However, I really think that first the VCCA needs to redefine Regional Meets vs. National Meets. For example, the Northwest Meet that is held in the Pacific Northwest every year should be called a Regional Meet, not a National Meet, because it is hosted by a local Region. A meet that is hosted by the national VCCA should be called a National Meet like the meets that Steve is suggesting. Once the VCCA gets the terminology down concerning a National Meet vs. a Regional Meet then step two should be Steve's proposal.

I believe that the Early V8 Ford Club has a similar program. It is my understanding that they have three National Meets per year.....one each in the West, Central and East. And, every five years they cancel the three National Meets for that year and they have an Anniversary Meet in Dearborn.

:)

We have National Meet all over the country now. We have the Northwest Meet, The Middlewest Meet,The Central Meet as JYD said. The only difference is that local regions are the host. The local regions raise the money and pay all the bills. This has been going on since 1964 when the Miami Valley Region hosted the First Central Meet. We had 65 vehicles from 13 states and two of them, a 1936 and 1932, were driven from California to Urbana, Ohio.

These are National Meets by the fact that they use the National Judging formas and classes. This is more than the Anniversary Meets do now. If Steve's proposal would go through would VCCA pick up the tab for 4 or 5 meets around the country? I think not. There is a problem covering the expenses every five years.

Steve mentioned doing it the way AACA does it. They furnish all the awards for all of the Judging Meets that are sanctioned by AACA. Is VCCA ready to do that?

If some of these one day car shows were changed to be three or four day meets with tours, seminars, judging, and an awards banquet each area would have a National Meet. This could be required before VCCA would sanction the event. We have no rules stating what a meet should be.

Just some of my thoughts.

I feel the VCCA should pick up the tab for all National Meets. Regions in the area should help with labor and sponserships/boosters.

Steve's proposal is a good one and I'm more likely to attend a National Meet every year than an anniversary meet every five years. If we stay with five year anniversary meets in one location we may want to consider changing to a "best in catagory" by attending members, much like a people's choice award. I say this because it seems like anniversary meets are for meeting new people and touring places that you may never get to see again. Judging of cars seems to be secondary.

In regards to the Flint meet, we may want to consider that a "special meet" and try a people's (members) award. It might be a good place to try something new.

One thing the national board must do is establish some rules. Rules for hosting a meet. Rules for hosting a tour. Rules for hosting a car show.

I have been involved in hosting an AACA Glidden Tour and an AACA Grand National Meet. I have also been involved in hosting a MARC National Meet. Both of these organizations have rules to follow. If you don't follow the rules you don't host.

In VCCA every meet or tour does it's own thing. Even at the Anniversary Meet they don't follow the guidelines. Guidelines are just suggestions you may or may not follow. Rules are to be followed.

Having both junior and senior cars in a class would bring SIX cars into competition.At the present time many classes have only one or two cars.Three car has almo become an exception.I am all for leaving it the way it is.
One thing that should change though is that the points follow the regional judging standards - ie at least 900 for FIRST place,etc....

42 Bill, yes you interpreted my thoughts on a National Meet every 5 years in different geographical regions. I would also consider a possibility that, on an Anniversary year, that we might not have Area Meets at all to encourage members to attend the only show in town, so to speak. For example an Eastern National Meet, A Southern National Meet, a Central National Meet and a Western National Meet. Area Meets could be held as well but maybe for a much shorter time.

I have to disagree with Back Roads in terms of having rules about the length of a meet. The concept of a One-Day meet has not been warmly accepted by some but we need to see what our membership wants. There are parts of the country where it takes 4 hours to go 100 miles due to traffic. There are a lot of working people who are busting their keysters to make a living and can not afford to be away on a week trip to a meet. Maybe a three day meet or two day? We should not limit host regions from deciding what is best for their group.

It is important for all of us to check the pulse of what our members are able and willing to do. I am concerned about continuing a service that is not wished by those who want to participate.

I find novasscott's comments of a 4 region national every 5 years very appealing.Especially after the upcoming 50th Anniversary meet.I personally would be motivated to try and make at least one of these every 5 years.Also,the thought of the awards process being the same for anniversary or annual meet is not at all appealing to me personally.IMHO,the anniversary meets should continue any special award system currently in place.Provides motivation/challenge for a serious show goer to shoot for.My 2 cents.Jim

SOME THOUGHTS:

This thread really should be in the Regional VCCA Meets & Events, VCCA events managed by Regions.

If you have not attended a Judging School, served as a judge or had a car judged recently, little value will be assigned to your comments about judging. National interest has been generated and constant improvement has been noted. I suggest we let them continue to massage the fine points rather than complain/object about/to their product.

Location of Meets: Experience by the National 4-cylinder meet proved that the further you move the meet toward the East, the less total attendance and the normal attendees just have to drive further.

Distance traveled to a meet is proportional to the
Length. Example: the All Cal for 2007 is only 3 days. Too far (over 1000 miles), for such a short meet, for me to attend.

The Anniversary Meet has proven to be a viable solution for the past 45 years. Regional Meets held in the NW during an Anniversary Meet have been low key and provided those who chose not to attend the AM, a meet to attend. Regardless of the location of the AM it will provide a travel challenge for the western part of the country.

There are many meets that are available for the “driving” members. Among these are the National 4-cylinder Meet, the early 6-cylinder, the Wood Tour, Three Main Bearing Tour, and the NW Meet, just to name a few, in the western part of the country. In fact a meet that provides for judging is in short supply.

In the Midwest, the Southern Spring Tour has proven extremely popular. The only shortcoming is the lack of a judging ingredient.

The only area lacking in both “driving” meets and “judging” meets is in the NE and SE.

Anniversary Meets are an opportunity for attracting a large number of cars and owners. The various classes in the Judging Manual are based on a very large population. As someone pointed out earlier, this is a special opportunity to present a new restoration to many sets of eyes, and a chance to have your work evaluated

The Anniversary Meet is a place for you to meet eye to eye some of your TA’s for example, and mingle with numerous vendors that you have done business with over the last 4 years. Meet and visit with many friends you meet at previous meets. In particular, our fellow members down under, up above, and out there.

If the AM has a fault it is being filled with TOO many opportunities. It is just not possible to participate in the many tours, seminars, judging, and fellowship.

And finally, a very serious error was made in the plans for the 45th AM. In the advertising that was placed in the G&D it only mentioned two tours and you had to choose one of those. I KNOW FOR A FACT THAT SOME MEMBERS DID NOT ATTEND BECAUSE OF THE APPARENT LACK OF MORE TOURING OPPORTUNITIES. Yes, there were several optional tours available at the meet; however it was too late for those that place touring high on their list. See my notes above. The activity list was running over at the meet, but was not at all evident in the advertising.

I WISH ONE AND ALL A MERRY CHRISTMAS AND A HAPPY NEW YEAR.

Ray, I must be confused. You mention the 4 Cylinder Meet, The Early Six Cylinder Tour, and the Three Main Bearing Tour and then mention there is a shortage of Judging. It is my understanding that Tours are for touring and Meets are for Judging. I have been on all of the Early six Cylinder Tours and hosted one of them. There is no Judging on our tours.

When you mentioned the Four Cylinder Meet did you intend to call it the Four Cylinder Tour? I don't believe I have read about a Four Cylinder Meet.

We have the Central Meet in this area for Judging. We draw vehicles from Ohio, Michigan, Indiana, Maryland, Kentucky, Canada, Pennsylvania, and Tennessee. Probably some that I forgot. The location of this meet moves around to Regions all around the area. We draw about 100+ vehicles every year.

It may be that I don't understand the difference between a Tour and a Meet. I also think there is a difference between a Meet and a Car Show.