VCCA Home Forums GENERAL DISCUSSION General Discussions How to convert online members to National VCCA members

Well the good news is Nothing will make it worse either! ARF! ARF!

I have been trying to resist getting pulled into posting on this string, but I gotta do it!

Street Rods are NOT judged at nationally sanctioned VCCA shows or meets. No Street Rod ever got a First Junior or Senior award. I don't know what you are talking about!

Now we will have a long conversation, no doubt, about what constitutes a Street Rod, and another one about what constitutes a nationally sanctioned show (again).

It is true that VCCA Regions sponsor open car shows, and invite anything on wheels. It is also true that Street Rods show up at these types of shows. It is also true that trophies are given out at (some of) these types of shows. So, therefore, a Street Rod might get a trophy, like "People's Choice" or "Top 20" or something like that, at a car show sponsored by a VCCA Region. But this type of event is just a car show, or cruise-in, or whatever you want to call it. It is not a "judged VCCA car show," which implies that VCCA members only are competing for their 1st Juniors, seniors, etc.

But a Nationally Sanctioned VCCA show, where STOCK Chevrolets compete for Junior and Senior level awards, does not judge Street Rods!

Now it may be that a '55 Belair with '69 Camaro wheels might show up at a nationally sanctioned show, and be welcomed on the show field. That's fine. It would get a point deduction for "wrong wheels." But that ain't a Street Rod!

Now on another topic on this string, in my own personal, humble opinion (NOT speaking as a board member) it seems to me that it is true that there are going to be people who don't really belong in the VCCA. That's not a terrible thing! The statement that "If you can't stand stock cars, then maybe you don't belong" seems reasonable to me, and true enough. By the same token, I don't belong in a Club that exists for T-Buckets, or Thunderbirds, or Street Rods, with my stock old Chevys. They might take my dues and let me join- but the simple fact is, I don't really belong there. I don't think it is such a terrible thing to recognize that simple fact. Although we certainly want to grow, and have new members, we should not try to be "all things to all people." We are about stock old Chevys. That is our niche in the world of old cars. Other clubs are about other things. Sometimes, we over-lap with their interests or visa versa, but we should be true to what we are about. That doesn't say we can't be tolerant of our members who have interests in other things as well. I, myself, also love old brass cars, but I don't try to force the VCCA into accepting a 1908 Buick as being relevant to VCCA, because that's not what the VCCA is about.

Macky Wacky...

Now that it seems that you have calmed down after the wack upside your head, let try to reiterate.

First. I never said that I can't stand all stock cars. I restored three of them and still currently own two of them.

Second. I don't like highly modified cars. I like a tastefully modified Chevys that have factory Chevrolet parts installed. Many of these cars have all stock interiors and sheet metal.I have no qualms about that kind of car at the same show as my stocker. BUT, I don't want it judged against my stock car! Most times these cars are judged by the public.

Third. I am not guilty of trying to change the VCCA creed. I new what is was when my father joined back in the seventies, and again when I joined in the early nineties. I have not filed a motion with the BOD. We are mearly just talking about ways to attract new members.

Fourth. Are we such a pompous bunch that we will not try to recruit a guy or gal with a mild modified car? You will certainly tell the recruit what the mission of the VCCA is and explain to that recruit that they will not have the opportunity to compete against the all stock cars.

The idea here is to lighten up on the VCCA mentality, so as to attract members that would otherwise feel that they are NOT WANTED. Perhaps....that guy with the modified 55 may find someone selling the stock wheels and hubcaps...

(ps. sorry Mr. Mack...but I'm not a quitter)

The G&D prints on every page 1, "VCCA ...open to ALL CHEVROLET ENTHUSIASTS (ownership not required)."
At the bottom of page 1 it prints, "Be aware: Not all cars featured in the G&D are 100% correct".
Sooo...I guess it's OK for some members to have a car that is less than 100% correct.
Since you can't get the G&D untill you join, we should have a way to let the general public know about this.

Like you Chevy Guru, I don't really want to carry this any further.........however, your statement that street rods are not judged in VCCA sanctioned events is not totally accurate, at least from what I have seen in the past. Vehicles of this nature have been judged in VCCA sanctioned events and, while not a lot, it has happened more than once. No, these are not people's choice awards given at a non-sanctioned event.....but rather real street rods, (not just cars with different wheels or hub cabs) being judged with original cars in sanctioned VCCA regional meets. Just because you haven't seen a street rod win a first Junior or a first Senior, (and with our judging system they shouldn't) doesn't mean that they haven't been judged in regular sanctioned competition with original vehicles. Sure, and I am the first to admit it, that this is not a common occurrence, but it has happened from time to time and I have seen it done on several different occasions at real VCCA sanctioned events. I do know the difference!

Since you are a national board member I think that instead of taking the defensive and emphatically stating that "no way is this happening", you should instead have the attitude that: "I am not aware that this is happening, however, possibly this could be true in some regions and maybe we should look into it and make sure that everyone follows the same rules if this is, in fact, the case. Thanks for your input on this issue".

Board members are on the board to serve, listen and to investigate certain issues that are brought to their attention by members. But stating, "I don't know what you are talking about!" is not the type of answer a national board member should be giving to any VCCA member concerning an issue. However, if you really don't know what I am talking about, then all of this is a mute point to begin with.

I wasn't feeling particularly defensive, or emphatic. But I would say that an answer of "I don't know what you are talking about" is a real good answer, if you don't know what somebody is talking about (happens to me all the time...).

Well, I am certainly here to "serve, listen, and investigate!" I never have seen a street rod at a sanctioned meet, to be judged. Never saw a picture, never heard a report. Then again, I've never been to a western states meet, but I've been to a ton of them in the eastern half of the country, in many different states and Regions. So I guess I am saying about what you thought I should say - just my words instead of yours - maybe we should look into it, and I guess that's what we are doing here.

On the other hand (and I think this conversation has taken place before, too, but here goes)...

as RGwiz points out, you don't have to have a perfect Chevy to be a member, and most cars aren't. So, if a paid up member owns, let's say, a 1932 coupe with a chrome V8 and flames painted on the hood, and he wants to show it and get it judged at a Meet - he gets his application form, and writes down "1932 Coupe" and pays his registration fees. Then he shows up at the Show Field with his flames and chrome V8. He's a member, he's registered, and he's got a Chevy. On what grounds do we tell him he can't show his car? As JYD points out, if our judging system works, he will not win his Junior, so what real harm has been done? Maybe he will go buy the right engine and put in there, and repaint the car. The chances are, he won't really enjoy that hypothetical event, because his car doesn't really fit in. Or maybe he likes the attention that comes from being the odd one. Who knows? But nature and natural selection kicks in, and this event very rarely occurs. But I don't really see that any "rules" have been broken - just a car shows up that doesn't score very well, and then probably doesn't come back again.

Question for Skip,

Perhaps you could enlighten us with specific information/example rather than a broad brush.

Would the "stock as originally sold during the model year" exclude changing body color to another stock color or adding original model year Chevrolet accesories not originally sold on the car? Seems that should be considered OK, especially when building a restoration from a car or cars that have been down quite a few roads during their decades of use.

The items you mentioned are all OK-color can be other than the original but must be a color offered for that year and body style.No Chevrolet accesories will cause points to be deducted.Points will we deducted for non Chevrolet accessories or accessories from another year.

Video,
I too was trying to stay out of this.......
As long as everything is correct for the year and model it is considered correct. The judging Committee had taken all of that under consideration.
As far as the Rods being Nationally Judged I like the Guru have never seen it here in East. We have had members who own rods bring them to a National Meet, but parked it on the side. If it belongs to a member legally we have to judge it if they want it judged. As it was pointed out the judging form has many mandatory deductions installed to prevent a street rod from receiving an oval. I don't see why there is a problem with a rod getting judged, it is only problem when we award it an oval.
Is this topic drifting or what?
Good night
John Mahoney

I was not in any refering to whether or not a modified should be judged, it looks like a waste of talent to judge a modified car ( a Candy apple with ghost nuddies 1954 hardtop,with a 350/350 hidden door handles and "Little Darling" embroiderd in the pleated and rolled naugahyde.

No Gwiz, I guess you really didn't get my posting, I am sorry I failed to let you understand my view, I said We should not recruit those that can not stand a car that is stock, I have been in one of these street rod clubs that mock us VCCA members and call us PURISTS in a tone that suggests that a purist is someone that is so simple minded that they only appreciate a Chevrolet restored only to stock condition, "Hell any dork can restore a car to original condition" and that "Anyone that would restore a car and fail to add an alternator and 12 volt system is a couple of hotdogs short of a picnic." what else do I need to say, There are many clubs that are supposed to accept Originals, Street Rods, mild customs, **** roadsters with 350/350 Chevrolet drivelines as "Chevy Powered"
But there aren't many clubs that only appreciate STOCK ORIGINAL and by golly one that does is VCCA.
Where are Skip, Chevy Nut, Ray, and the rest of us supposed to go once the club is turned into a "All Chevy and Chevy Powered car club?

I didn't say we should not recruit folks that also like modifieds into the club, but that anyone that detests a stock vintage Chevrolet should go else where. The creed of this club is restoration and preservation of Chevrolets in original condition. I also like some Chevrolets that have been modified in one way or another but I won't bring one of them to a VCCA event and I also would acept any new member's cherished ride that has some incorrect items, (wrong wheels, split manifold, dual Rochesters, some incorrect chrome accents and if he wanted to keep it that way fine, I just don't want him telling some other VCCA member that has a stock car of the same make and model "You need to pretty up and soup up that old plain jane Chevrolet of yours so you won't slow down our next tour."

OK Macky Wacky, I think we are finaly on the same page here...Sorry about the confusion.

Now what about recruiting new members. You mentioned that if not for a few old hands left, we stand the change of letting this club go down the tubes.

I think we need some better exposure. I think a link on the official Chevrolet web site might help. We should also look at getting out the fact that we are the only all stock Chevy club around. But it's ok to have a car that less than perfect, or no car required at all. Some folks just like to read and enjoy attending our meets if they were better advertised.

I might have missed this somewere but can a guy who is not a member but hears about one of our shows, get his car into the show. Judged or not, can he enter? ...And does most VCCA shows provide a spot for non-members to display a Chevy if a fee is charged? (let's assume it's not a modified)

The two quotes above were taken verbatim from post #000029. In post #000031 a request was made to submit specific meets that had these type vehicles on the field/and judged them by the official VCCA judging form and guidelines. As no samples have been presented I am to assume the two quotes above were ill advised.

On the west coast only two bodies ever conduct VCCA class judging, the NW Meet and the ALLCAL. I have attended the last 29 consecutive NW Meets, and in every case was either a Judge, Statistician, Field Judge or in most cases Head Judge. The ALLCAL Meets do not conduct judging every time, however I have attended most of the Meets in the last 10 years to include some of the meets that conducted VCCA class judging..

In this period of time I have never seen a street rod, hot rod or any other type modified vehicle judged under the VCCA Judging form or rules. There have been occasions where highly modified vehicles, and all other non-judged vehicles, were placed on the judging field as a Car Show. These vehicles were parked away from the Judging Field. In fact at the most recent NW Meet (Kelso Washington July 22-25th) a special classification of cars was formed and placed in a group that was also on the judging field. This special class was called “The Personalized Class Judging”. {A disclaimer was placed on each entry form as follows: “This Personalized Class is not VCCA affiliated”}

A quick check of attendance rosters show you attended the NW Meet in Bend Oregon in 2000, and the Anniversary Meet in Santa Rosa in 1986. At both meets you did not show a car nor were you on the Judges list. I have invited you to be a judge at several of the NW Meets and you have always declined.

If I have overlooked a Meet that judged modified cars and recorded it on a VCCA judging form I am not aware of it.

It would appear that the most critical comments about VCCA class judging come from those who do not judge nor have a car judged.

Hey Ray,

I like the idea of the "special class". That's a step in the right direction as long as everyone got along. It shows some interest on both sides.

Here in Jersey we have a few meets that are actually sponsored by a Buick club, a Corvette club, and a local all brands club called "The Restored Rusty Relics". Most of the cars are pure stock with a few mild street rods. Awards are usually given from each club for every class, along with a peoples choice award.
None of the awards are AACA, VCCA, or Buick Club judge.

I wonder if the VCCA might be happy to add there name to the roster? That would be great!

Talk about opening a "can of worms".

If you really do mean:

"...restricted to "Stock, as originally sold to the first owner..." ???????

I don't think that there would be very many cars to be judged, if any at all.

Don't we use something else???? Like:

"As close to stock as possible and as it COULD have been delivered to the 1st owner" ??????

***********************************************
If a member rolls up to a VCCA meet driving a car with a replacement motor, can they show the car, would it be allowed on the field?? Of course it would be allowed on the field and then I assume the judges would takes points off for the motor but the car would be shown... is that correct? I can't believe that the person who lets the car onto the judging field is knowledgeable enough to figure out who should or shouldn't be judged.

The less correct the car the lower the points; the more correct the higher the points. Simple as that, period.

The VCCA fills a niche that exist for lovers of Chevys (just like any club it has to satisfy a "need") and our niche happens to be "original" style Chevrolets.

I'm a member and all this makes me want to go bye bye. My membership has been tentative for a couple of years now and the turtle in the shell attitude will worsen my opinion. I haven't found membership very helpful so far so maybe I'll keep my money when renewal time comes.

Guess AntiqueMechanic has pretty well nailed that one...

Cabboy - I don’t understand your statement about the “turtle in the shell attitude.” I’m not trying to say anything here, I just don’t understand what you are saying.

Gator - sure, that statement is simply a Goal.

"As it 'could' have been delivered" is basically interchangeable, I would say; since for instance we accept a paint color that is correct for model and year, regardless of what color the specific car might actually have been painted when it was built; and a correct replacement engine is not a deduction normally, at least in the earlier years. I'm not sure on this, but let's just say a 1947 216 block is basically impossible to tell from a 1948 216 (obviously, except for the casting date). So if a '48 has a '47 block, I don't think that hardly ever would even get found out in our judging process. Nobody checks casting dates, in my experience. Now on the other hand you would not accept a 327 in a 1957 model, though; or a Hydramatic in a 1952; as those would be incorrect applications of a major component for those years of manufacture.

I think sometimes we all get maybe too carried away with this fear that our cars must approach perfection to be on the judging field. That’s really not the case. We all try, with varying degrees of success, to make our cars nice. Most of us gradually improve the cars, as we learn more, and have more dollars and time available.

I think the main underlying thought we have all been dancing around here is that GOAL, or our overall way of thinking about our old cars. We are pursuing the idea of making the car stock, with the ultimate goal of perfection being ”˜like the day it was delivered.’ That’s just our goal, an ideal. It’s just a way of thinking, a MORE EXACT way of saying “we like ”˜em to be stock, not (massively) modified.” Do we ever attain that goal? Probably not. Maybe the guy with a 1975 model that has only 4,000 miles since it was new might approach it pretty close. But us poor guys with a 60 or 80 year old car, that started out as a pile of rusted, battered jumbled parts - we just need a goal, something to aim for. And we say “stock” as we pursue that dream. That is a direction we take, as opposed to other people (who are perfectly entitled to their own ideas), who decide they want to pursue a big chrome 500 HP powerplant with a neat old body. They have a different goal from us, that’s all.

I don’t mean to ramble and philosophize all night here. I guess I’m saying most cars aren’t perfect, mine sure aren’t. But we can show them, drive them, and enjoy them anyway. Come to the Meets, volunteer to judge, and it is a real eye-opener. There are some guys who have done it a lot, and others who are just judging for the first or second time. We all ask questions, try to learn, and try to be fair. We all make mistakes, but not on purpose. But it’s fun, and you get to really look at other people’s cars, and appreciate what they have done. It will encourage you, and motivate you.

Basically, a car show is a chance to maybe show off your work a little, and see how you are doing, measured against your peers and our imperfect concept of “stock original,” which we keep trying to approach. The difference between us and a street rodder is, we have an objective yardstick to measure our work against - “Stock Original” - and they just have a subjective dream of their own, of what they want - so they can’t really say “that’s wrong” - “or that’s correct” - because only they can decide what they like.

Perfection is not required to have fun, and a car can be real nice without being perfect. Most cars that have a “Senior” oval have some small problems, and a few things that are inaccurate. Mine do.

Disclaimer: all of the above is just me, an Old Car Guy, speaking for myself, and not being said in my capacity as a Board member, nor on behalf of the judging committee, or anything else official. It’s just me, mumbling along.... I may be wrong on any or all things I say, and I definitely am not right on everything I say, just ask my wife or kids!

RG I hope to see at the National VCCA Meet in New Jersey this Sunday. Just stop by the green 60 Impala and say hi. Gator, the engine can be replaced and receive a deduction if the displacement is correct for the year of manufacture. So a 350 in a 57 is incorrect, and so is a 235 in 38. We do not check numbers because we now many of these cars are on their second life.
Ray I can't agree more with this
"It would appear that the most critical comments about VCCA class judging come from those who do not judge nor have a car judged."
Class judging is supposed to be fun, not a chore. I understand that it is not for everyone, but it is a part of our club. It is needed to help confirm our mission statement and to establish a visual baseline of what it is, and reward those who persue it. That is it! It should be treated like a friendly softball game amongst friends, some one might lose or even get hurt. but no one should be looking to beat up the other team in the parking lot after the game, because they lost or dissagree with a call by the ump. It is about friends getting together for the weekend and having fun, and making new friends who hve the same interest.
John

Ray: While I have not attended all of the NW Meets over the years, I noticed that you only listed two of the many meets that I have attended since 1978, so the check of your roster must have been very quick as you stated. Also, how about those several meets where I did judge, or where I entered my car in the judging? And, the 1930 chassis display that I had at the Anniversary Meet in 1986. Did you fail to see those in your "quick" check as well?

Yes, you have invited me to be a judge at several meets and, after the two times that I have judged at the Northwest Meet (you were the Head Judge as I recall), I have declined to do so since then (so have others as you are aware) and you know the reasons why. We have had this discussion face to face several times in the past, so there is no need of going over it again on this forum.

You stated in your posting: "As no samples have been presented I am to assume the two quotes above were ill advised". I am not about to divulge on this forum the meets where the judging at issue took place, and you are not going to suck me into it either. Furthermore, I don't care whether you believe what I say or not...it is of no importance to me. Based on past experience, you probably wouldn't listen anyway, especially if the observation or the opinion goes against your perspective. When approached on issues regarding judging, you always tend to take the defensive instead of listening constructively to what a person has to say. Your statement: “It would appear that the most critical comments about VCCA class judging come from those who do not judge nor have a car judged”, proves exactly that. Therefore, it would be fruitless for me to carry on this conversation with you regarding this issue any further.

However, I will be happy to talk to any board member, face to face, who is willing to listen, and to carry on a congenial discussion regarding this issue. I don't know all of the board members but those who I do know personally are the type of folks who are willing to listen and discuss both sides of an issue calmly and professionally, make some good points, and if the issue has merit, they will work towards that goal. That is what the VCCA is all about.

I will say this in closing; I am delighted to hear about, and I fully support, the Personalized Class Judging that was used at the Northwest Meet this year. That is definitely a step in the right direction!

Have a nice day and see you at the annual JYD Tour in September!

Huuummm, "A special class of cars was formed I guess Steve and his Judging committee have been revising the Judging handbook while I was dozeing off, what page is this Special class of cars listed on?....and does this include the "Chevy Powered" class of Willis coupes? and "T"buckets?..... Oh now I see more clearly, a disclaimer on the form makes it Okey Doakey?

John 348...

Unfortunately I could not volunteer this year as I will be leaving for vacation on Saturday.

I had hoped to work the show as last year because it was a lot of fun and I met the most interesting guy from Pennsy who brought a 32 four door deluxe. This vacation was booked some time ago, so I'll miss this years show.

My "job" last year was to help with the field inspections and it was a great position as I met all of the drivers and cars. If anyone gets a chance to work a that position, take it.

I agree with you when you say most folks have fun at the meets. Regardless of what you drove in. There is a place for everyones "niche" as long as we can recognize that there are other "niches" and they might just be interested in holding an event together with us.

Look, I don't see any other type of club putting us out of business. I'm just looking for exposure. I have personnel friends who own non-stock cars, and they love my stock 32 and 36. We all have a few laughs together. Matter of fact they often wish they had an all stock car because...stock cars are different from the everyday over-chromed, flame painted, see one ya seen them all modifieds. All stock cars a impossible to find these days.

Mr. Mack
You have not been sleeping there is no special class recognized by the VCCA for Personalised Cars. As I said in an earlier post there are members who don't enjoy class judging, but want to participate. At the Area 11 meet earlier this month the two nicest restored cars on the entire field were participation only cars entered by one of our TA's. He just does not like to have his stuff judged, but most important he was there with us having fun.
John Mahoney

John, that is more like what I do like, a friendly meet with everyones cars from a 995 point jewel to one of my oil dripping cars that like to be seen on the local highways and look really good and shiney from 50' on the side of the road cruzing along at 45 or 55 MPH.
"Keep the shiney side up!"

I hope to see some of you driving down that beautiful "warm" and green Texas highway on any given Sunday!

Not to change the subject (even if it needs changing, IMHO) but MrMack...

don't run over that Texan named "Lance Armstrong" riding his non-Chevy Texas bike on the edge of your "beautiful "warm" and green Texas highway on any given Sunday".

He is in a "class of his own". Next year #7???

One of the reasons I joined the VCCA 5 years ago was to have my car judged, and I have been
very successful. I since realize that this club
is much more than that. I have met many great new friends. This will be my third year judging and
I really enjoy it.
That being said, I do see a number of less than perfect cars on the judging field, some with modifications. Many times, this is their first time out being judged. For many it is a learning
experience. I know of several cars that have improved by the next year and went on to get their oval.