VCCA Home Forums GENERAL DISCUSSION VCCA Judging Questions Judge's Gazette Correction

HI all,

Just so that all of you are aware there was an error in the G and D "Judge's Gazette" #9 in the May issue that I wanted to correct. Under incorrect engine deduction there is reference to a 1956 Passenger car and a 235 six with powerglide. The reference to the 235 was to be tied to the 1948 passenger car which would have a '56 235 in it instead of a 216. Somewhow I missed that in my editing. As all of you know, a '56 passenger car would or could have a 235 six with powerglide. I'll have to correct this for a while but if you have anyone ask let them know that was a sentence error. This would also be a good opportunity to begin a thread on the proposals and changes for 2003 that were printed in the G and D for both March and May issues. Any questions, comments are encouraged. Thanks,

Steve

Yes, I noticed that too. Also, the rest of the incorrect engine explanation is a little fuzzy since it can be read two different ways. One way to read it is that the 1948 must have a 216, but that it could be a 216 from another year. The other way to look at the wording is that the 1948 not only must have a 216, but it must have a 1948 216 or it is incorrect. I read it as being the latter. Can you clarify that some for us?

Sorry Skip, I was out of town. To answer your question. The correct engine should be the cubic inch displacement for that year of manufacture. Now in saying that we are not a club whose judging process has required a "Tech Check" nor have we deducted for casting numbers etc. We, (members of present committee) have tried to improve and tighten up the judging guidelines but also tried to meet what we feel is the "Spirit" of the club. I believe that the founders of this club and it's past and present members enjoy all aspects that the club has to offer. One of those is driving their vehicles. If a vehicle has the correct motor for that year of manufacture then that should be accepted.

The ideal situation would be, let's say, in my case where I bought a '56 Chevy with a '66 corvette 327 with fuelie heads! I sold the motor and found a November 55 ('56) 265 and replaced the motor and powerglide back into the car. My '56 was built in late September of '55. I was lucky to find a November motor but it's not the original motor. I don't think we want to penalize someone for bringing a modified vehicle back to a stock, if that's what they want to do. So what if I was able to find a '57 265 and put everything back on it so that it was correct for '56 but the block number is '57. That is where we have to decide what the goal and spirit of the club is going to be. If we have judge's checking block numbers then we are getting close to a NCRS type of criteria. It is an incorrect block, yes but so many of these old vehicles have such a history about them that a lot of us don't know about. Maybe my '56 had a replacement block from a crack in late 1956 and the dealer replaced it for the customer. Let's hear from you. Where does our membership draw the line as to what is a correct motor or not for our club's standards? Do we have some leeway or does it have to be numbers matching? Do we provide incentive to bring a "no engine or trans" car back to life with a motor from that year or do we buy a crate 350? It's easier to buy the crate motor than it is to find a replacement so why do it? Let me know what you think.

Thanks,

Steve

Yes, I understand what you are saying, and you have some good points. I feel that the car should have the correct engine block and cylinder head for the year of the car. That is to say, a 1932 should have a 1932 engine. A 1951 should have a 1951 engine. And, this is easy to check out since the block casting numbers are readily available and have been for years. It also makes it fair for the dude that did his restoration homework and has the correct year engine in his car, vs. a dude that has the correct cubic inch engine in his car, but not the correct YEAR engine installed in his car. Bottom line, if a 1930 Chevy, which originally had a 194 cubic inch block from the factory, now has a 1932 194 cubic inch block installed, the engine should be considered incorrect. Besides, the judges should check the block numbers to determine what cubic inch engine is in place anyway, so just carry it one step further......check for the correct year as well. Many fellows strive to have the correct year of engine in their cars when they restore them, especially those folks that have a goal to have their cars judged when their restoration projects are completed. And, the goal of the VCCA has always been to have the car as it came from the factory. Therefore, I think that should also include the correct year engine as well since the engine is the "heart" of the car. I don't believe that the engine has to be the one that came with the car new however, but for judging purposes, the engine should be of the correct year for that particular car. :cool2:

Right on, Skipper!! Now, do the VCCA Judges take off points for OVER-restoration?? IMHO, over restoring a car is just as historically misrepresentative as under-restoration is and without penalties for over-restoration, the whole show / judging process deteriorates into a competition of how good the restorer is, skill-wise, rather that how accurate the restoration is. :confused: :confused: :confused:

-Bob

Uth-Oh! that means no bumpers on the 20's and early 30s cars, and no trunks either and no column mounted Moto-meters I reckon!

or spare tires.

I like the idea of upholding the spirit of the club. And I like the cars to be the way they were "then".

Since people are different and their goals for their cars are different, maybe some additional (different) classes would work.

I'm voting with Skipper! If I remember right Chevrolet also had a 194 cubic inch block in the early Nova's. So your telling me that a 32 with a 60's 194 could be equal to my 32 with a 32 194 in judging? I also agree with Skip that it does not have to be the original engine for that car but it does have to be a 32 Chev Engine!

Yes I will also have to go with what is stated, ...as it was equipped on the dealers showroom floor , or is it as it came from the factory?... either way an engine manufactered in September of 1956 could not be installed in a car originally SOLD as new in May 1956 without having some points deducted for the incorrect engine. Maybe just a couple since it is the same calendar year as the car, if the judging gets to that fine of a point, as of now I don't believe an engine manufactored in September would be installed in a 1956 model year car, since I believe the model year tooling changes happened in June or July

The closer we judge the cars and also uniformally deduct the same points for the same incorrect part. the fewer tie-breakers will be needed.

This question is for Steve or any one on the Judging Committee.I replaced the bare block on my '39 with a new "out of the crate" 1939 Chevrolet bare block only.(20 years ago) The block has no number stamped on it as bare and short blocks didn't.I did not restamp the block with the old number and don't know what it is.The car is a preservation class car ,has been for years.What would I do for an engine number-ie would it be required?the block has the correct casting number.I know I can make up a '39 number and stamp it but would this be necessary??

'32confederate you said:

"I also agree with Skip that it does not have to be the original engine for that car but it does have to be a 32 Chev Engine!"

I agree also on that, now what about the build date of the engine? Does that have to match with the build date of the car?

I am all for giving points to the person who has gone the extra mile and made the car as it was in the showroom, it is a real pain and he should be rewarded. Just how much over the guy who got the right engine year but not the right month, that is the dilemma for me. In the more modern cars there are build dates on a lot of the parts that need to match with the car's build date.

Then of course there are the people that sell new tags for these parts so you can have the right dates w/o any hassle or time spend. The is a "horse of a different color" for me.

Guys, thanks for the feedback. I think it is a consistent decision to say that the engine should be the correct cubic inch displacement for that year of manufacture. Gene, if your short block was a GM crate and that's what GM did in '39 and the block looks correct then it will not be necessary to stamp numbers on the plate. You as the owner, might notify the team captain ahead of time and document with him or her before judging begins but I don't see deductions there. We are not tech checking the cars and we are not checking casting numbers. If a judge sees something out of the ordinary, then they need to contact the team captain and, in turn, contact the chief judge to confer the question in mind.

We also have a problem with the V8 era vehicles when it comes time for casting numbers and block pad ID numbers. Some Chevy V8s will be impossible to see due to location and emissions, AC etc. Is the spirit of this club the kind where we are going to jack cars up and check numbers? Get mirrors out to see behind bell housings? I don't think so. What if the owner bought a vehicle with a correct motor that has the block pad id milled off? I am sure we are going to experience this. These mandatory decisions are a big step and we need to be flexible as we go along and not be too quick on things. Gene's engine should be OK.

Steve

Once again I find myself thinking that we have a very good, level headed person involved with the judging of VCCA cars/trucks. I agree with Steve's 'view' of what the club should be about.

It is a very unrewarding to be involved with judging sometimes, and I would like to thank the folks that have taken on the task. It is like walking into a minefield.....

Skip's position is the most consistent one and I think that is the "foundation" that we need to build on as we go with this revision. It makes sense that it should be that year of manufacture. There will be some exceptions and decisions made on a more local basis but as we get to know more of the people from coast to coast and we become more accessible as a resource, the national committee can help with these decisions.

We knew the engine deduction would be the one with the most interpretational differences. The paint issue is pretty clear and the non authentic body is pretty much cut and dry. It's the motors that will be the toughest. You know, I don't really see a lot of members that this is going to effect. Let's hope none!

And if we set our judging standards high, people will try to achieve that high standard. We will keep looking for that "right" part w/the right month and year, which benifits the owner and the club's goals.

It is all excellent progress as we evolve the process to more accurately reflect the values and mission of this club!

I would like to know how you can set an objective standard for over or under restoration? The only way you could know if a 1932 was off the mark either way was to have several original, imaculate, unrestored cars, and a collection from each assembly plant, to get a very general idea.
This problem of a correct level of restoration has reached the point of rediculous in NCRS. I have watched heated discussions between NCRS judges at Cypress Gardens over how much over sparay on an aluminum bell housing is correct. You got to be kidding me!! I walked away in disbelief and never entered a Corvette after that. I am sure NCRS never missied my membership but I guarentee you I have survived with out them. There is no way a judge can supply me with documentation to make a strong case for over restoration.

One of the major problems we have had over the years is that alot of the things judges were looking for were someones opinion without documentation. It is the owners responsibility to document their vehicle but if the judges don't ask and are going on what someone has said we don't get the chance to document our vehicle. It is much better today than in the past. I believe one way to help the issue is if we document something that we think is an issue we should forward a copy of the documentation to the Technical Advisor for that vehicle and have it incorporated in the Judging Standards.

I agree with Jim. However, I think documentation is also a responsibility of the the judging community as well. I have a strong disagreement with with a very well known person in our organization about a particular item. I have even asked this person for documentation. I have yet to receive it but have been assured by this person that if he judges my car, he will dedcut points. I have offered my factory documentation to prove my point but he rejects it. I judge in both AACA and VCCA and fell there is a definite clique of people who proceed in the direction of their choosing. What a shame. For the sake of the hobby and VCCA, I hope it changes, and soon.

I have had the same problem as mentioned by Roadster32. In the past alot has been determined by who says it and not the printed page. I do think it is being questioned more now than in the past and others are finding documentation to back it up. Jim

I myself enjoy to have my car judged, But I wonder why so many people do not want to have their cars judged. Could It be that judging Is getting to the point that too many things are being taken to far as far as points being deducted and people are turned off as far as having their cars judged and just enjoy touring and meeting with the people at their meets. Our northwest meet coming up this next week has 14 cars being judged. A very small number for a VCCA meet. You wonder why and then talking to some of the people going to the meet, And they say, Too much hassle and too much Nit Picking on certain things that get points taken away on their cars. That Is not what certain people want to hear, But that Is how a whole lot of people feel.

I just read what I wrote in a rather hurry and was horrified at the miss typing. No wonder it took me 21 years to complete my car!! Oh well, it's good for a laugh I guess. My hands move faster than my brain.

Don I think you are correct with respect to people getting turned off by judging. Frankly, I think anyone who has salvaged an ol' Chevy from demolition deserves accolads. I can get excited to see a great unrestored car as well as a car restored by some nut like me that spent forever trying to get things "right".

I have just purchased a third vintage Chevy. It is not as old as my other two but I don't think I will ever have it judged. It will be driven and enjoyed. I don't care if it gets rock chips in the paint or has worn places.

There will most likely never be a judging process that will please everyone. I am heavily involved with AACA judging an recognize it's faults. But you know, all things considered, it works pretty good. I do not claim to be an expert about any specific car, club or judging system. But I do enjoy being with guys who are nuts about cars. That's what keeps my interest..not if my car was judged like I want. I always remember when I judge a car it is someone's pride and joy. That pride and excitement is what makes the hobby... and the club. Not my judging.

Roadster32

Very good remarks Roadster32. I just completed my second restoration on the same car. I finished it the first time in 1965 after a 4 year restoration. This time it took 2 years. I have shown the car one time and next week will be driving it on a five day tour. I would much rather drive 100 miles than sit 4 hours waiting for judging to be completed. See you down the road.

We just had our northwest meet In Auburn Washington, Just twenty miles south of Seattle. The meet was great and the judging school also was great and about seventy five members attended the four hour school.I think alot of the guys who were there now have a better understanding of what Is done at a judging field with the cars. We had nineteen cars judged and everything went great. Alot of the meet people came and watched what was happening. The whole judging process took a couple of hours and I found having my two cars judged a great experience. I feel alot more people should get Involved having their cars judged, No matter what stage their car Is In. The things that they may find wrong, Gives you a chance to correct before the next meet and only Improves your car. There has been so much talk about judging and It really Is a big part of a meet along with the touring and meeting other people, The awards banquet, And all the friendship, Is a great part of all the activities. I found the judging to be fun and I learned alot from the judging school. People can complain all they want, But being Involved with all the goings on at a meet Is what It Is all about. Be happy, Have fun, It Is great. Thanks

AMEN!