VCCA Home Forums GENERAL DISCUSSION VCCA Judging Questions Vcca judging of engine years

Maybe somebody on this forem can put together a petition to request a change in the engine judging to go back to the correct year engine in the same year vehicle. A 36 engine just shouldn't be allowed in a 34 vehicle if trying to preserve a stock vehicle.

You have started it. I will sign on.
James M. Koontz VCCA # 00028

I will sign on too!

Junkyard Dog, VCCA #07962

I'm with you Jim if thats what it takes.
Flew over your house couple weeks ago, didn't see any movement!
Walt D

I'm still here finishing up the new house inside work; got heat in the garage with the 35 pickup parked and the chassis from the 34 dump truck being torn apart. Just added a 35 1.5 ton long WB to the pole barn. Still has the original upholstry in the cab and is the first 1.5 ton I've seen with the optional double action shocks. Any suggestion on how to collect more yes votes??

You could send a letter to each Region asking them to pass a petition for signatures and return it to you to forward to the BOD.

And how are we going to tell, on the judging field, what year the engine was built?

If you are a knowledgeable judge for a particular year of vehicle you will know by the block casting number, the casting dates, and the engine serial number. And, all of that information should be in the judging handbook for that particular year, and that information is readily available as well.

Maybe we need to separate the 4's & 6's from the V-8's when it comes to judging the early engines have casting dates you can see. I don't know anything about your more modern vehicles still stuck before 55. Any V-8 ers know how to tell????? I can put together a letter petition for the regions.

It is easy and fast if you have a "numbers" card on each year and type. I volunteered to put together many of them but when I was told that it was too much work I gave up. Then I was told that it would be unfair if all years did not have cards. It is that thinking that kept the caveman in the dark with a club for a weapon.

Yep, Chipper Dipper was apparently "stonewalled" on putting together the information needed. And, all of this information is readily available from many different sources.

I will support the effort too.

I don't agree. I still want the fox tail and mud flaps.

But I do want the car to look original.

I always am amazed that you can have the wrong year but the right cubic inch engine and the VCCA doesn't care. That is just totally unfair to the person who goes the extra mile to have the correct year engine in their car.
It is about time that we ask the club to correct this blatant error in our judging system.

I have not seen any arguments in favor of this mis-ruleing snafu about the correct number of cubic inch engine being getting the same favor as the correct date and cubic inch engine. I do realize that the audience here is not the majority of VCCA members by no means. I hope it will not be construed that we are not loyal VCCA members because as a group we oppose the ruling. Hanging our dirty laundry out in public not with standing. I am sure some one will use that old dead horse thing about airing our dirty laundry in a public forum.

Some times a man must to do what a man must do......

Actually, many vehicles are judged for credit and prestiage to their owners as they advance through the tiers of the VCCA judging venue. This is a way they get credit for their favorite part of the restoration hobby, and they are entitled to a fair and equal system of competition. IMHO

Maybe winning alot of awards for a car, Means getting alot more money when the car Is sold. I noticed that some of the cars at the Barrett Jackson auction brought more money because of the paper work and literature about the history of the car and what awards the car won. Most all of the cars at the auction seemed to bring more money then what the average guy would want to spend for a car, At least for a working guy with limited funds.

Wouldn't collating this information into a non-chat board area of this web site (or somewhere else if that's not possible) be useful for everyone? I know there's an encyclopedia of information here on this board but finding it isn't always easy.

Then when its time change the judging, the information is already there.

Just a thought. I could help with the collating, but I don't know jack about the numbers themselves.

Jim

Sounds very similar to the idea Michael 41 proposed here some months back.

Man, Michael got SHOT DOWN in FLAMES.

Hope you have better luck than he did, Jim.

Bill.

Uh Oh, I'd better put on my thick skin!

i'd be happy to compile the casting #'s, casting dates and pad suffix info for all the small block and big block chevy engines from 55 thru 67. could also do the 53 to 55 235's. A volunteer endeavor obviously. just need the word that the effort will be utilized on the judging fields before initiating the aforesaid undertaking.have had more than a little experience doing similar compilations for the NCRS. mike

Gator, a personal agenda, well, It probably took several members to get the judging process started, and I think it could be a personal or a collective agenda, does it matter which? The process is a fact and open to all members who wish to participate. I don't see whether anyone should be ashamed to admit their own reason for participateing in a VCCA event if that is what they enjoy, whether it is reading the classified ads, attending social events, touring their old Chevrolets, driving a ragged-a**ed original, or hauling around a shiny trailer queen and pushing it off and on the trailer at a show. or just converseing with other old friends. There seems to me to be reasons enough and room in the club for each or all.

"just need the word that the effort will be utilized on the judging fields before initiating the aforesaid undertaking."

Mike: The first hurdle that you would have to jump would be to convince the judging committee that they have made a major mistake by initiating this new "wrong engine" rule in the first place. If you can do that, and the judging committee does withdraw the ruling, then you could probably proceed with your project. However, as I understand it, several have already tried to convince them with no success (even Chipper who is on the judging committee and he failed as well). I think at this point it would have to be the Board of Directors that changes this ruling because I seriously doubt if the judging committee will. :( :( :(

Dawg: i wouldn't mind compiling the casting and pad data but i'm gettin too old and cranky to go thru a bunch of political BS to try convincing the judging committee that the data would level the judging playing field. if they want me to proceed, they'll have to get in touch with me. regards, mike

Totally understandable and that's how a lot of us feel regarding the politics. At any rate, Chipper Dipper already tried with a card listing of all of the casting numbers, engine numbers and etc. for the various years and he was stopped cold by the judging committee from what he says. Too bad, because with this type of information it would make the present judging system more professional.

Guys & Gals,
As an example, below is a proposed engine card for Class G which is 1929-30 passenger. Similar cards could be available in the packet of information given the the Judging Team Captain. The judge for engines could refer to it to quickly get the "numbers". To get a copy that you can actually read, right click on it and copy the photo to your computer and then print it.

Other classes might have more engine options and therefore more lines but can probably use the same format.

Chipper Dipper: The engine information card is great! It give lots of details regarding the specific engine for the year in question, and it makes the judging process so much easier and more professional. The new "wrong engine" ruling definitely takes the judging system a giant step backwards, and it still amazes me that the BOD let this happen. At any rate, the judging committee should take a look at the engine card idea again and realize that something such as this would not only make the judging process more efficient, but would help to make the judging system more accurate as well.

Does anybody have a list of people on the "Judging Comitte"? How did they get on it? There hasn't been any mention of what they are doing or when they meet. Do all the VCCA members ever get to vote on what they come up with??? Can our board of directors change their decisions?

The Judging Committee Chair, Steve Scott, visits this forum occasionally. The asst. Chair, John Mahoney more often. So, they should read the posts in the next few days and likely comment. As far as the BOD each member has an Area Board Member and six at-large members that they can contact with praise or ????. They are listed in the front of the G&D each month. Many have email addresses listed so can be contacted electronically. I personally believe that most don't care much either way about judging so go along with the Judging Committee recomendations.

Go to this page on the VCCA.org site VCCA judging page and you can download the 2005 judging manual, it is a MS Word document file and at the very end of the manual the members of the judging committee are listed with their addresses. VCCA members will find several familiar names there. It appears to me that Steve Scott and his committee are very visable and open to querys of a serious nature. Please remember, as I have been reminded several times, you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar......

Thanks "sweety" I can be nice at times. I don't get my trucks judged but I think if a person so desires then this club should stick to judging them as close to the production model year build as posible with authentic parts or service changes made during that year. Otherwise it just a hot rod. After all our club is "Dedicated to the Preservation and Restoration of Chevrolets"; isn't that printed in the G&D every month?

Interesting point:

I don't know everybody here in Chevy Chat. But it does seem like most of "us" who are commenting about this engine judging situation don't even have our cars judged. I'm pretty much the same. I know I haven't had a car judged in five years, could possibly be TEN years.

(Oh boy, my next thought may get the fur flying......)

So, is it really any of "our" business anyway??? It seems like it may not be......

Bill.

It could be that if the vehicles were judged to the way they were built there might be more vehicles judged.

some of the other car clubs have a seperate judged class for non-original engines in a given class of cars. for instance, NCRS will judge my 61 vette with the 92 ZR1 frame, suspension, engine trans and rear in the Sportsman class. it wouldn't be judged in the Flight classes where originality is manditory per the NCRS Statement of Purpose. Since the Sportsman class was instituted about 10 years ago, the # of corvettes being judged at the national meets have doubled. the sportsman class participants' vettes are assigned an area on the judging field adjacent to the flight judged cars and they are recognized at the awards banquet and in the publications in a manner similar to the way the flight judged cars' owners are recognized. mike

Chipper, it won't print clear enough to read! And I have a '29! So close and yet so far! :(

i too had trouble printing the chip's data. as posted, its too small to print and read. if i knew how to blow it up before printing, i'd be good to go. then again, i've never been "good". mike

Jim (35 Pickup Man)
This issue has been covered several times. I would be more than happy to give you a call and explain the reasoning (there are many). Please e-mail me your phone number and when is a good time to call you over the weekend.
John Mahoney
Assistant Chair National Judging Committee

If you want a copy of the Class G engine card that you can read email me and I will send a MS Word file attached to my reply.

Bill, We may not have our cars judged, and you are right in that isn't something all of us discussing the subject have a lot to gain from the process, maybe some day we will, or maybe we will be called on to act as a judge. I think it does effect our club overall, as to it's creditability in the hobby.

Hey John,

Rather than explaining the "many reasons" why it's OK to have the "wrong engine" in a car one phone call at a time; wouldn't it be easier to just "post" the info here???

Just a thought..........

Bill.

I'm with 42bill. I think the reasons for having this wrong engine rule should be posted here so that we can all read and discuss them.

I suppose this ruling was recorded somewhere in the Judging Committee meeting minutes? did it appear in any issue of the G&D?

Even with the discussions on the problems or disagreements I must say that the judging process is much improved over what it was a few years ago. The Judging Committee has worked hard to make the process better and I am sure will continue to work toward further improvements. If we all help it will happen sooner.

I think it everybody who is a VCCA member has every right to express or partake in this. Maybe if the judging was a little better & fairer, we all might enjoy it, especially if it promotes a better car/truck and maintains a higher standard.

Yes...it appeared in the May, 2003 issue of the G&D.

I personally think that a judging committee is a good thing and it is a great concept adopted by the VCCA. However, in my opinion, the only glitch to the system is this wrong engine ruling. It's just not fair to the dude that does his restoration correctly and has the correct engine, and it rewards a fellow for doing an engine alteration. And further, having the wrong engine does not comply with the VCCA mission statement.

Anyone not happy with this or have any other ideas should write their area representive.They are listed on page 2 of the G&D.They then bring it to the National Board meeting in late winter.

The correct procedure is outlined in the G&D once a year.

Doing anything else is just blowing wind.

The other sugestion would be run for a position on the board.

Yep Chipper we have a good club here not with standing an old grouch here and there,a happy-go-lucky Wacky one, a cronic bitcher ever once in a while even a old mutt that sniffs out too many junkyard rust buckets, a parts book guru and not to mention a demented bugle boy! Other than those few, VCCA has a fairly good group, don't you reckon?

I prefer to speak on the phone rather then post all the reasons why the VCCA accepts a correct replacement engine. The wrong engine would be the wrong displacement plain and simple.
It is true that it could be unfair to the person who goes the extra mile, but for the most part that person goes the extra mile on all aspects of his restoration, and is reflective on all aspects, and for the most part will have the better vehicle. We did not just arrive to this decision on a whim. There are too many questions with no answers. Such as;
What about a vehicle that had a service engine installed when it was a few years new?
What about and engine (V-8) that was decked and the numbers were removed?
What about the guy who buys the car in the field with no drive train?
What about an engine that just can't be repaired?
Again I would rather talk on the phone, I personally find it a much more focused and productive exchange of thoughts,
Enjoy
John Mahoney

John: regarding the four "what abouts". all four should take the deduction for engines dis-similar from that which was installed in the chevy as it left he factory, that is, if VCCA is to judge the cars in the "as it left the factory" condition . regards and merry christmas. mike

John, you have some valid points there and I would like to address them one at a time if I may:

1. An engine made in 1932 and installed in a 1929 vehicle, even though they both used a 194 cubic inch displacement, is considered an incorrect engine. The casting number of the block does not match that for the specific year. You can call it a replacement engine, but it is still considered the wrong engine for the year in question, and it does not conform to the VCCA mission statement that appears in the 2005 judging manual, and I quote: "...we, as club members, are comparing their vehicles to how the manufacturer delivered the vehicles to the dealer and (on) to the public. The goal of VCCA National Judging Process is to be regarded as the standard to which all Chevrolet vehicles are held. The result of the Judging process will be a fair and consistent evaluation of the vehicle being judged and the proper and deserved award for the owner’s efforts .


2. "It is true that it could be unfair to the person who goes the extra mile, but for the most part that person goes the extra mile on all aspects of his restoration, and is reflective on all aspects, and for the most part will have the better vehicle."

What if two cars in the same class score identical points which results in a tie, but one of the cars has a wrong engine and the other one doesn't? What then? Common sense would dictate that the car with the correct year engine should score higher. One "right" and one "wrong" do not make two "rights". The judging process and the rules are designed for the majority not the minority. And, the minority should conform to the rules instead of "bending" the rules for the minority at the expense of the majority.

3. "What about a vehicle that had a service engine installed when it was a few years new?"

No problem.....points are deducted for the wrong year engine. The judging manual pretty much eliminates that problem with it states that vehicles will be as they came from the factory or delivered from the dealer.

4. "What about an engine (V-8) that was decked and the numbers were removed?"

The car originally came from the factory with engine serial numbers, so we are back to the judging manual again......the car is to be how it came from the factory or delivered from the dealer. Therefore, it is the owner's responsibility to have the correct engine block and with the correct serial numbers.

5. "What about the guy who buys the car in the field with no drive train?"

His car is no different than a car that is being judged that has the correct engine installed. He should have the correct drive train if he is going to have it judged as prescribed by the judging manual mission statement. In counterpart, what about the guy who buys the car in the field with no drive train and he installs the correct drive train and engine when he restores the car? Case in point: There is a beautiful 1937 cabriolet in Portland, Oregon that has won VCCA awards. This car is fabulous, and the owner started with only a cowl, a windshield frame and some rocker panels. His drive train is totally correct. Under the present ruling, does he receive extra points for having the correct engine? No.

6. "What about an engine that just can't be repaired?"

The engine in my 1930 coupe couldn't be repaired so I found another engine with the correct 1930 casting number, and casting date, and the engine has a 1930 serial number as well. If someone is dedicated enough to find the correct engine and install it in his car then he should be given credit for his efforts instead of giving the credit to the dude that has the wrong year engine installed.

All of the points that you listed in your posting above are not that grave, and none of them are impossible. The problem is that the credit is given to the fellow with the wrong year engine and the car with the correct year engine doesn't get any extra points for doing a correct and "authentic" restoration. It's simple, just follow the mission statement in the VCCA judging manual and make it the car owner's responsibility to have a correct restoration, including the correct engine. That is what our mission statement strives for.

For those that are interested here is what is stated in section C. "Philosophy" of the 2005 judging manual regarding the mission statement:

"The mission statement of the VCCA includes the preservation and restoration of vintage Chevrolets. Vehicle judging is one of the many functions and activities available to the membership of the VCCA. The National Judging Committee understands that members enjoy many of the different activities that are available. (Tours, club meetings, model cars, (to) crafts and costume judging are examples). Members are encouraged to participate in any or all of the activities that the club has to offer. The VCCA Judging Process has been developed so that a vehicle can participate in these activities and still move through the awards system successfully. The function of the VCCA Judging Process is to provide a way for our membership to evaluate the historical correctness , workmanship, authenticity , and condition of our Vintage Chevrolets. It is the owners’ understanding that when they decide to have their vehicles judged, that we, as club members, are comparing their vehicles to how the manufacturer delivered the vehicles to the dealer and (on) to the public . The goal of VCCA National Judging Process is to be regarded as the standard to which all Chevrolet vehicles are held . The result of the Judging process will be a fair and consistent evaluation of the vehicle being judged and the proper and deserved award for the owner’s efforts."

And the judging manual further states under section E "Meet Requirements":

"To be entered at a meet where the VCCA Judging Process and awards are used, the owner must be a member in good standing. A registration form, identifying the owner and type of vehicle, must be filled out properly and signed by the owner. A vehicle entering judging at any VCCA Sanctioned Meet may be an original or restored vehicle, a driven or trailered vehicle,and is judged comparing its condition to when it was delivered from the factory, to the new car dealer, to the public. Any feature, option, or accessory shown in the original factory or dealer catalog, sales literature or company service bulletins or other original Chevrolet or General Motors literature are accepted for judging. It is the responsibility of the vehicle owner to document all features, options and accessories as being correct for that year.

I think the 'old' correct way is the right way.

This idea that a 'wrong' engine is OK is wrong.

My 2 cents.

Bill.

What makes a car/truck? Wheels and the most important an engine. The engine in a vehicle really determines what it is. It doesn't make any difference what year car it is you can find the correct casting # & p/n parts at least so that it appears from the outside that it is the way the vehicle is built. If we can find a 1920's or 30's engine to get the right part I just can't see why a modern V-8 mass produced engine would be hard to find. I guess some people don't have enough drive to do it and want to take the easy way out. I joined this club in the very early 60's to help me learn all about my Chevrolet and to get it as authentic as possible. Jim VCCA #1046

Guys, there is really no argument here from any of us that the correct factory engine that was dropped in the car on the assembly line is the "correct" engine. Any other engine is not the original one, hence the "wrong" engine.

I have spoken on this issue many times, at many meets and threads. It is also recognized that the owner who really carries out the restoration to the fullest is not getting their "due" when someone else is held at the same standard for not having the factory engine. We know this already going into the decision.

There is a larger issue here that I will share. I would like you all to think about John's "What if" questions a bit longer and deeper. If we can find solutions to the following concerns I feel we might be able to adopt a more rigorous policy on correct engine.

We are strapped enough with an all volunteer club who depends on each other for the recruitment of judges. It has been a great experience for most of our members to be able to judge in our system for many reasons. However our judges are asked to judge one of the largest ranges of years of any club in the country except the AACA. Most of our chief judges make sure that they select those members who are knowledgable and experienced in a particular class of Chevrolet. Many times we have to ask judges to evaluate classes that they are not familiar with or we have chief judges who do not know where to place each member who volunteers. Then we expect them to be an "expert" in casting numbers? That doesn't happen at most of our meets.

We are presently working on a complete set of engine identification cards that Chip is talking about. We have made some headway with these and have set a goal to have them for the Anniversary Meet. There are some members who were asked to share in the work load of such a project and have not done their job due to either having "issues" with it or just dropping the ball. The goal would be to have a complete engine ID data base that could be held on a CD and hard copy for each meet and with each Area Director.

Even if we did have the cards available we have to be able to have the manpower and reference material in place at each meet which will also need more time to perform. Are we going to have a tech check prior to our meets? Who is going to do that. Many members are going to want to tour and enjoy the other aspect of the meet and not spend more time with judging. Some of our meets are only one and two day meets. There is limited time and resources to add more. Can we have tech checks that are quick?

If incorrect engines are a deduction and we have a system in place to evaluate it, are we going to deduct the 100 pts. and make sure someone with a different 265 in their '56 Bel Air than the date code on the car does not advance in our system. Is this where it is headed with a club that has a questionable future due to lack of younger people? We feel that if we carry this issue too far we will turn people away from meets and judging altogether. Where do we go with this issue? How far?

There are very few vehicles that are 50, 60 years old that do not have a past to them and a story to tell. We do not want to turn members away from our club services. We do not want to discourage someone from bringing home a basket case and bringing it back to life. John mentioned a block that has been milled and the numbers are gone. Even if you brought a 31 home with no engine and trans and you find a '31 drivetrain three months older than the car, you still have an incorrect engine, don't you? Shouldn't that member not have deductions too? OR are we going to draw the line somewhere else? Where do we draw that line? We would have to change our deduction so that members with restored engines that are not the original engine will receive a specified deduction but it can't be 100 points, in my opinion or we will drive many hobbyists away.


My point is that our club is not at the stage where we can accomplish what you are asking for. We don't want to turn away members who have saved a piece of history. Most of our vehicles that are older have been tampered with and we should encourage people to restore and preserve their Chevys the best way they can otherwise they will be street rodded.
We need a system in place which will require manpower and time. It's hard to find both of those.

Let's discuss ways to proactively solve these concerns and we can begin to improve our system.

Happy Holidays,

Steve

Just a few post thoughts,

We stil have a numerous amount of judging forms where members do not fill out the engine information. The team captains, deputies, and chief judges are supposed to identify that and send it back to the members to be filled out. I can not tell you how many forms came in with the identification not filled out. We had meets where the judging forms were filled out by the host meet with much of the information not included. We need to have chief judges and meet hosts follow what is asked in the judging manual. I feel that many people have not read it yet. We have host regions who choose chief judges by popularity and not by judging ability and management capabilities because that is the "Way it has been done." I have had chief judges who have said, "This is my meet and we will do it my way." We are not going to make progress that way, I can assure you.

Couldn't we have vehicle cards with this information filled out where the members can keep the cards and place them on the seat? HPOCF cards are being formed that will have the information on it for the certification teams. This will require more volunteers. I can't do all of this myself. Yet asking people to volunteer is always a struggle.

Just felt I needed to add a bit more.

Steve. How did the judging committe come up with deducting 100 points for the wrong engine. To me that seems a very excessive amount of point reduction for the wrong engine. A person may have a car that Is restored completely like how It came from the factory, Except for having the wrong engine. Now you take 100 points off and you are at 900 points before you look for other things that may be wrong on the car. Already you are In the 800 point range and maybe less then that. Now that car has lost so many points that winning any kind of award Is gone. I realize that a wrong engine warrants a hefty point reduction, But I think 100 point reduction Is way to drastic, Compared to what the other point reductions are for other things wrong on a car. In my opinion I think maybe a 25 point reduction for a wrong engine Is fair and still gives the person, A chance to score high enough with his car to recieve some kind of award, Who has restored the rest of the car with very few point reductions. I think that some of the critical things about judging cars Is driving alot of guys away from having their cars judged. I hear comments like, Why should I put myself thru all this judging stuff, I will stick to touring and have fun with no worry about how my car will do If I had It judged. Myself I enjoy being a judge and having my cars judged, Along with the touring. Just my thoughts. I would like to hear other comments of my thoughts, Or am I way off base about this. :)

Well, Chevy, you have hit the nail on the head.

Since what we are talking about here with "Wrong Engine" in this string is a different thing than "Wrong Engine" as per how the judging currently works.

Since the current judging system accepts a car that has the 'correct' displacement engine form the 'correct era' as being OK - then

what is a "Wrong Engine" when we are talking about as it applies in the current judging system?


It would therefore have to be an engine that is NOT the correct displacement, or not from the correct era.

In other words, to get the 100 point deduction for "Wrong Engine" - under the current system - the engine has to be REALLY, REALLY wrong. Like a 350 in a 1934 sedan, or something.

Thus, the big 100 point deduction. The "100 points off" insures that a car with such an obviously doubly-wrong engine will not receive an award nor advance in the award system. Since you have to score 901 or more points to advance. That is the thinking.

To keep the really blatantly wrong-engined cars (like a 350 in a 6 cylinder era car) from being able to advance.

Steve: Thanks for posting your point of view on this subject. I appreciate you taking the time to do so and to elaborate on some of the reasons why the wrong engine ruling was made. However, I would like to address your concerns in the order that you presented them.

"It is also recognized that the owner who really carries out the restoration to the fullest is not getting their "due" when someone else is held at the same standard for not having the factory engine. We know this already going into the decision."

Knowing this then, the decision should have not of been made since that is discriminatory to the majority of the people in the judging competition that have the correct engine in place. Since, on the other hand, the judging committee did go through with this decision, then to keep the system "fair" as stated in the VCCA judging mission statement, provisions should have been made to give extra points to the person that does have the correct engine. No matter how you try to explain it, with all things considered, in the judging process a car with the incorrect engine is not equal to the car with the correct engine. Again, what about a tie score in the same class between a car with the wrong engine and a car with the correct engine as I mentioned above? What is the answer in that situation?

"I would like you all to think about John's "What if" questions a bit longer and deeper. If we can find solutions to the following concerns I feel we might be able to adopt a more rigorous policy on correct engine."

There is a solution to all of the above. The VCCA mission statement covers it. Abide by the mission statement and you have your solutions.

"Many times we have to ask judges to evaluate classes that they are not familiar with or we have chief judges who do not know where to place each member who volunteers. Then we expect them to be an "expert" in casting numbers? That doesn't happen at most of our meets."

True, and I agree with you. Many times judges do have to evaluate classes that they are not familiar with, however, the judging manuals were created for just that sort of problem. The manuals make it easier for volunteer judges to perform more adequately within out judging system. They don't have to be experts on casting numbers. All they need is a pair of eyes, the engine cards with the correct numbers for the year in question, and to know where to look...which should be stated on the card. This is no harder than evaluating the correct tires, the correct battery, the correct bumpers and etc. for the specific year. Some accessory items like radios, for example, are harder to evaluate than the correct engine, or the correct battery, or the correct tires. Considering your argument on the wrong engine issue, then maybe we should allow those items to be incorrect as well because the volunteer judges are not familiar with those accessories either.

"Even if we did have the cards available we have to be able to have the manpower and reference material in place at each meet which will also need more time to perform."

If the engine cards are part of the judging manual, then no other time is needed other than going through the judging manual step by step as a person judges each car. It is my understanding that is what the judging manuals were created for, and that is what makes up part of a professional judging process.

"If incorrect engines are a deduction and we have a system in place to evaluate it, are we going to deduct the 100 pts. and make sure someone with a different 265 in their '56 Bel Air than the date code on the car does not advance in our system."

A deduction for the wrong year engine is mandatory, however the total points deducted is up to the judging committee to set in place. I agree with you, 100 points is probably too aggressive; 25 to 50 points would be more logical. And, as far as a car not "advancing in our system".......during judging points are deducted for incorrect items. That is what determines first place, second place, and etc. If there are too many incorrect items on a car it receives a lower score and it doesn't advance. That is how the judging process works.

"My point is that our club is not at the stage where we can accomplish what you are asking for."

If the VCCA is not at that stage as of yet, then what happened? The VCCA must have moved in the wrong direction in the past couple of years because previously points were deducted for the wrong engine and the wrong transmission.

"Let's discuss ways to proactively solve these concerns and we can begin to improve our system."

Absolutely and I totally agree! However, bottom line, the judging committee must either follow the VCCA's own mission statement as documented in the judging manual or change it. You just can't have it both ways and expect the system to work and to be fair for all.

Steve,
I have a couple of questions about your comments.

"We are presently working on a complete set of engine identification cards that Chip is talking about." What is the content of the "cards". Do they include serial & casting numbers? Do they include prefix and suffix codes? Or are they just the listing of: "Engine size/displacement Carburation/Intake Exhaust and Transmission availability" that were proposed for "Phase 1"?

"We have made some headway with these and have set a goal to have them for the Anniversary Meet. There are some members who were asked to share in the work load of such a project and have not done their job due to either having "issues" with it or just dropping the ball." I believe that I am one of the persons that you are refering to. I was asked to do (and also volunteered) to do the cards for the early 6s to the first Chevrolets. I made a proposed a format which included the "numbers" [casting, serial, date code] (see proposed Class G card posted earlier) so even a judge that knew nothing about the engines that he was asked to judge would be able to determine if it was the correct year and type for the vehicle. When I was informed in no uncertain terms that the "numbers" would not be included dispite my multiple efforts, I then refused to contribute to the abomination and nearly total waste of my and others time. I to this day don't understand how a judge is going to use the "Phase 1" cards.

"The goal would be to have a complete engine ID data base that could be held on a CD and hard copy for each meet and with each Area Director." I believe that a laminated hard copy of an engine card for each class should be part of the packet given to each team captain. He then would give the card to the person on his team that was judging engines. With the card a judge could quickly determine if the engine was correct for the year and application. I believe that even a totally unfamiliar judge using a card similar to the Class G card posted earlier can be a number expert. The card contains a description of the location of the vehicle (or car) number, engine numbers and codes. It then gives the range or type numbers used in that class. Now I fully understand that all classes are not as straight forward as Class G. Some particularly in the late 60s and early 70s are very complex particularly with the COPO options that were available. But a delay in getting these cards (or for other classes) completed should not prevent the use of cards for other classes. If we were to use that criteria to judging overall then no judging of any kind would take place. There will never be complete equality between classes in VCCA judging.

Just my thoughts and questions. I still am willing to develop cards that contain enough information to help improve the judging process and judges education.

How "wrong" can a "wrong" engine be?

The 1939 engine was the later engine sold for a replacement in a 1937.This would be OK?Then can a 1948 216 be installed in a 1937 seeing its of the same displacement?Or a 1952 216.

If a 1949 head with 14MM plugs,which was the correct replacement part for a 1948 with 10MM plugs, was installed on a 1948 could points be deducted for the wrong head?If the same head was on a complete 1949 engine in a 1948 would that be OK?

What if an owner went by the present rules and installed a 1954 235 engine in place of the 235 in his 1950.Then 10 years from now the rules are changed and the correct engine only is accepted.Does he need to change back to the 1950 engine or???If I use the 1954 automatic choke carb. on the 1954 engine installed in my 1950 is the engine OK but the carburetor is incorrect?Should the engine be 1950 gray or 1954 blue?

What if I attend the Central Meet and the 1954 235 in a 1950 is considered OK there and then go to a Middle West Meet and its decided that its incorrect?...It there anything that states just where the line is drawn as to what is coorect and incorrect?

Can a 1954 235 be installed in a 1950 PG with a 235?Then how about a 1962 235, with the short water pump.Can that be installed in a 1950?What intake manifols should I use-the 1950 or the 1962?

In 1959 the replacement complete service engine for a 1956 265, which came with an intake manifold, was a 1959 283 engine.Would that be correct.If so could you deduct "points" because it has the incorrect intake manifold?

Just some food for thought

Now those are some interesting scenarios!!! Leave it to Chevgene to know all of those opportunities.

When you start changing the engine from the correct year engine is when I have a problem. The VCCA is trying to preserve history. History can not be changed. History is documented with fact. What if in 50 years we had not done our job of properly preserving the Chevrolet History would our future members believe that a 283 was correct for a 1956? Or would they believe that a 1914 Royal Mail was correct with a 350? By preserving history as it was built ( at the assembly plant or show room )future generations will not be confused as to what is correct. I say if it is a 31 with a 32 engine it is wrong. If it is a 56 with a 59 engine it is wrong. Wouldn't it be nice to have a 28 that was built to have a 6 cyl with a 194? Yes, but they did not build them. It appears from everything I have seen and heard that we have the tools to determine what engine is correct for what year. Let's use them!! Let's not get hung up on the Date Code issue.

That brings up another thought. When is an Antique Car a Hot Rod? The process of building a Hot Rod is to modify it to what you like and want. By allowing incorrect engines; a 31 in a 29 - a 48 in a 35; are we accepting HOT RODS? Now I have no problems with Hot Rods. After all, if it were not for Hot Rods some of us would not have the CORRECT engine in our cars.

Just a few thoughts that have been brewing since this thread started.

Gene,
Your post illustrates exactly what I have been trying to get across for years and years. "Where do you stop when you allow deviations or modifications?"

It seems that changing one part often requires another change to make it work. For your engine examples you can often add: size/location of exhaust pipe, size/type of muffler, and/or clamps/supports. Fuel line location, generator, starter and other engine components.

Then there is what I call the "endless requests". "If you allow seat belts (or mirrors or ???) for safety then why can't I put on radial tires?" triple-edge wiper blades? replace 6 volt with 12 volt? (no not easier starting but brighter lights) hydraulic brakes? [the list can be nearly endless].

Safety is not the only rationale. "I can't find the correct part." "My original was damaged beyond repair." "Redoing my originals were just too expensive." These are among the reasons cited for or justification to make a modification.

If you don't believe that the situation described above occurs just do a search in this Chat site for radial tires for instance. A search of other topics will also get several hits.

Apparently for 'safety' we allow seat belts; but NOT radial tires.

Now that's CRAZY!!!

Instead of saying "where do we stop" I think we should say "don't start."

That is..... NO changes, no modifications, just plain old original as it was when it was.....

Bill.

This entire thing started back in 1965 or 1966 when they allowed "modern core radiators" in the place of the original honey comb radiators.

Maybe it would be approiate to deduct a lower number of points for each deduction, like maybe 5 points per incorrect tire, 10 points for seat belts, and 25 points for the incorrect date coded engine and 100 points for the incorrect size engine (cubic inch). This would let those with the incorrect but correct figuration to compete, they would have to loose points and could not win a tie with a completely correct car or truck. Just don't charge any points for mis-spelled words,

my suggestion: if incorrect casting #, 100 point deduct. if correct casting # and incorrect casting date, 25 point deduct. if correct casting # and incorrect suffix, 25 pt deduct. if correct casting # and incorrect casting date and incorrect suffix, 50 point deduct.Don't think VCCA ready to evaluate and hence deal with atypical broach marks. mike

I keep reading all the talk about wrong engines, Casting numbers, That I think that the time It will take to judge all the things about Casting numbers, wrong engines and so on and on that there will not be qualified people at the judging events around the country to properly do It right. Also I think that getting to looking for casting numbers and properly Identifing what Is right or wrong Is pushing the system to, I do think we will have more people turned away, Which Is a great majority already not wanting to have their cars judged. If the engine Is wrong for the car, OK then so many points are deducted for that. If the engine Is correct except for Instance the carburetor Is wrong, Then a small deduction. Having the people at the judging meet who want to judge and who are usually not qualified to know alot about the cars they help judge, Getting Into casting numbers and other time consuming things like that, I say we are trying to go way to far In our VCCA judging system, And as much as I like having my cars judged and trying to be a judge who like alot of others who do not really know alot about the cars they judge, I think some of this stuff turns me off. Like so many people, The heck with Judging. I will stick to touring and being with my friends and have fun. I guess how far does the VCCA push being over critical about judging cars. Again this Is my thoughts. Lets hear more. :)

Would the correct casting number with the incorrect casting date be any casting number that post dates the build date of the car, even if the correct year? I would think that a 25 point deduction for this would be a little steep.

if the car rolled off the line on june 1 1931 and is presented for judging with a july 1 1931 block, the block isn't that which was installed in the car as it left the chevy plant. hence, if VCCA is to follow the "as it left the chevy plant" philosophy, then a deduct is appropriate in the above examle.mike

Donald: It takes no longer to check for the correct engine than it does to check for the wrong engine, and the block casting number, serial number and casting date will determine what engine is installed.....especially if the information is part of the judging manual. Under the new ruling, the engine must have the same cubic inches as the original. Well.....to determine that the block casting numbers have to be checked anyway!

How do you feel about having a "modified" body on a car when it is judged? Should points be deducted for a modified body since the car didn't originally come from the factory as that particular model?

If I did a perfect frame-up restoration on a 1948 and the guy next to me did an equally good job but had a 1952 216 block (easy to see side motor mount bracket boss) and he recieved equal or more points I would be an unhappy VCCA member....if you want to talk about losing members.On a run of the mill car it would make little difference but to the guy that takes it seriously its another story....and those "perfect" cars are usually owned by the "serious" people.

Would be intresting to know how many VCCA members that have cars judged know of this rule.

Gene, It really would not be an issue because all cars over 975 would move up. For both cars to be equal both owners would be equally serious, and odds are both owners went to same degree of restoration. I read Don Boltz's post and he really gives the true perspective. Also keep in mind if the block is of a different year the other sundries on the engine must be correct for that year of manufacture. Judging is supposed to be a fun and informative process, but it seems like the fun part is being forgotten about. I do see your point about block having a difference and also sharing the same displacement. I think some new wording needs to be installed such as "correct displacement for year of manufacture that is visibly correct"
John

This thread has progressed well and stayed on topic.Opinions from both "sides" have been given and I do understand that there can be more than one opinion.My suggestion would be for a board member to print out a copy of the entire thread and read it to the complete board at the next meeting.Just so everyone on the board knows what others thoughts are.Would also be interested in the other board members opinions.

And yes John-The "visibly correct" would be an excellant compromise for now.

I have no opinion on this as my car is being restored to drive my grandkids around and go golfing. It will have the correct color, motor, ect and be as close to original as I can make it with the money I have. I would also like to have it judged when I am done just to see if I could improve it somewhat without costing me a fortune. I know the workmanship won't be 100% but I want to do as much as I can by myself and friends just for the bragging rights. I do believe both sides on this topic have valid reasons. It's just figuring out what is the best. Thanks.

I only have this to say.

I believe that the people showing cars and judging cars on a regular basis should have the major say as to the nickle and dime issues concerning the judging rules subject to vote of the Board of Directors, however the purpose and mission statement should take priority,

The same applys to the touring committee and the members that sponcer and attend VCCA sanctioned tours on a regular basis, they should have the major say as to their touring nickle and dime issues also Subject to vote by the Board of Directors. And also the VCCA Purpose and Mission statements should again take priority.

The Chatter group may only be a voice in the ears of the Board of Directors, but a viable voice. We must realize that there is other voices strong and weak that seek the ears of The Board of Directors.
That is all I chose to say.

As the years go by and we keep getting Into newer and newer twenty five year old and older cars that are accepted In the VCCA, And the engine compartment Is so full that you can not hardly get your hand Into It to work on the engine. How are you even going to find a casting number to see If It Is correct or not. Sure on the older cars, No problem, But not the newer cars. Do you say, Well If the compartment Is too full, Then we will let casting numbers be one thing we will overlook. :)

Know what you mean Donald on our 68 impala we have all the paperwork that was with the one owner car when it was sold, I decided to change the sparkplugs and the sparkplugs were those without gaskets, supposedly from a later year engine. Everything else checked out to be what was on the original sales paper. Well to make a long story shorter, I needed to check the head numbers and the engine numbers, after a day of washing scrapeing and removeing the valve covers the numbers were found and were indeed the original numbers and from the looks of the area under the valve covers the covers had never been off. I determined that the wrong plugs had been put in , examination of the sparkplug holes showed that the called for plugs were correct. But I wonder how long it would have taken a VCCA judge to determine if the engine was correct.

it is not too time consuming to evaluate the casting #'s on a 53 thru 82 chevy corvette, once the judge becomes acquainted with flashlite and mirror. even the powerglide equipped corvettes can be judged with lites and mirrors. takes me about 1 minute to check for casting # and casting date on a 53 thru 67 vette(whose casting #'s and casting dates are in the same location as the pssenger car blocks of a given year). i can't speak for the C-4 vettes that have recently been included in the ncrs judging process as i have no desire to judge them.Engine stamp pad data takes about a minute also unless there is atypia on the pad being judged. if the vcca judging committee were to offer a "casting # school" for interested judges, it wouldn't take long to educate the judging personell.I'd favor VCCA begin evaluating casting dates and casting #'s initially and after the judges get acclimated, perhaps advance to judging the engine stamp pads. mike

Hey Mack. You are right on, How much time can be spent on a engine, Interior, Undercarriage, And so on, Especially when the judges probably spend about a half hour to go over the whole car when judging. I do not know what the outcome will be for judging engines, Casting numbers and so on for the newer cars. If this system Is to be fair for every car judged, I do not see how It can be done for the newer cars and also how many volunteer judges would be qualified to properly judge a engine. At our last Northwest meet we had alot of volunteer people who signed up to be a judge. I was one of three people In my group and I would say we did a good job on two of the three cars we judged, But the third car was a four cylinder car and the three of us had very little knowledge for judging the car. There was other four cylinder cars also judged and not enough four cylinder people to do all of them. We did our best on the one four cylinder car we judged, But what or how much did we miss because of lack of knowing the four cylinder cars. I would think this happens In other meets. Bottom line Is, How perfect or good do we get when cars are judged when you try to get enough people to be a judge, Even If they have very little knowledge about the cars they are assigned to judge. This Is just my thoughts. :)

Ideally we should check everything with a casting number of a seria number on the car....Ideally I say, but that has very little to do with reality, when there is about 10 t0 20 minutes for 4 people to judge a car. I would like to see some realistic ethics in the judging system, each owner should inform the judging team of any incorrect part or deduction that should apply to his car, and the judges could then do a quick evaluation of the car. That would only require honest car owners, is that possible?

Donald: Your point about volunteer judges not knowing what to look for and etc. is well taken. As I understand it, one of the reasons why this new engine rule came into being is for that very reason.....because of the lack of knowledge by the volunteer judges. So, to make things easier, as long as the engine has the correct number of cylinders and the correct cubic inches no points will be deducted.

But....if these volunteer judges don't have the knowledge to determine if the engine is original how are they going to determine if the replacement engine now in place has the correct cubic inches as the original engine it replaced?

For example, the early truck 235 looked identical to the passenger car 216. So, how are these "inexperienced" judges going to tell that the 235 truck engine in a 1947 passenger car is wrong without checking the casting numbers or engine numbers? The rules say that the engine must have the same cubic inches as the original or points will be deducted. Based on what you are saying then, the incorrect 235 engine in the 1947 passenger car (which is incorrect since the car originally had a 216) should be overlooked because the volunteer judges don't have the knowledge to tell which engine is which.

Another example would be the 1968 327 and the 1969 350. They look the same. How is an inexperienced judge going to tell them apart if the 1969 350 is in a 1968 that originally came with a 327?

Here is another issue: If a 1941 Chevrolet has a 1951 Chevrolet 216 engine in place, (which under the present rule would be okay since the cubic inches are the same for both years) but all of the engine accessories like the starter, generator, carburetor and etc. are all 1951 instead of 1941, then, according to the rules, points must be deducted since these are incorrect parts for 1941. So, how are these volunteer judges going to do that? If the volunteer judges don't have the knowledge to figure out what type of engine is in the car, how the heck are they going to know which starter is correct for the year, or which generator is correct for the year, and so forth without checking the numbers on those items? And, if they are going to take the time to check those numbers then they sure has heck can check the block casting number or the engine serial number as well.

Yes, on the newer cars with everything crammed in place, individual engine accessories and parts can't even be seen. Maybe the easy way out for all concerned is to ignore everything under the hood for all cars during judging.

:( :(