VCCA Home Forums GENERAL DISCUSSION VCCA Judging Questions Bad Judging experience

I got myself all riled up, making a posting under a String called "Engine Paint" in the 1933-36 forum. So, if you read it there, you've already seen this. But I got aggrevated all over again, and decided I'd post this here, too, where it really belongs.

This is a sore point with me, so I’m going to get it off my chest. This has been bugging me for 5 months. Maybe I shouldn’t be “venting” like this, but I’m going to anyway!

When I went to restore my ’25 Roadster, I went all out, I wanted to make it the best that could be done. I spent a tremendous amount of time and money trying to make everything absolutely perfect. “Almost” was never good enough, whatever it took to make it absolutely correct. I never had a Trailer Queen before, but this one is. The other cars are all Drivers, and get driven a lot.

I think what started me off was that my Daddy was born in 1925, and I always wanted an early roadster (even though I can barely fit in it!).

So, when the time came to paint the engine, I asked my Tech Advisor (Ray H.) what to use. He was incredible as a Tech Advisor, by the way. I could never have restored this car (it was in boxes) without him. He emailed me back sometimes 5 times a day, usually with pictures, to answer my millions of questions. I am eternally in his debt.

Anyway, he said to use The Filling Station paint (great outfit!). They were, at that time (early 2003), just getting 4 cylinder paint on their shelves. They kept me waiting a few weeks, while they went back-and-forth with Ray and others, getting the paint dead-on, mixing and re-mixing until they were sure they had it right.

They sent the paint, I painted the engine.

By the way, I would describe the 4 cylinder color as Olive Green, like a World War I Army truck comes to mind.

The Roadster did incredibly well at Meets and Shows. It won “Best of Show - 4 Cylinder” at the first 3 national VCCA Meets it went to, always scoring very high. It did equally as well in AACA, getting its Senior Grand National, and the even more prestigious “National Award” presented at the AACA annual meeting in Philadelphia last year. I was humbled, honored, and proud.

So, finally to my complaint. This past summer, I took it to the 42nd Central Meet in Indiana. These guys are supposed to be the best, very knowledgeable crowd, and all that.

I heard on the show field (I was judging) that there was concern that my engine paint color might not be correct.

I had with me the ACTUAL CAN OF PAINT from The Filling Station. (I always bring it in case I need to touch up anything after trailering.) I had with me in my documentation file the Invoice from The Filling Station, showing that I bought the paint, and the matching part number on the can etc. I had emails with me, from the VCCA Tech Advisor (Ray) saying that this was the correct paint to use on a 4 cylinder engine. In other words, I had BULLET PROOF documentation that my engine had the right color paint on it.

I presented this proof to the Chief Judge, the Deputy Chief Judge, and the Team Captain for my car. VCCA procedures say that the Owner is given the benefit of the doubt in any such situation; but I had all this documentation and Proof to boot!

What did they do? They raised the hoods on several other 4 cylinder cars on the field. Most of these cars were the light gray - pale green, the color that Bill Hirsch sells, which everyone pretty well knows is wrong, wrong, wrong. None of them were the color of my engine.

So, they took several points off my car for Incorrect Engine Paint! Then, to add insult to injury, they deducted points for my hubcaps as being wrong. These are the original hubcaps for the car (not reproductions), freshly re-nickel plated. How much more right could they be?

I was disgusted with the ignorance this showed about the judging, knowledge of the cars, and the failure to follow the correct documentation procedures.

I never took a complaint to the Judging Committee or Steve or anything, it just wouldn’t look right, me being on the national Board and whining. (Guess I’m whining now!)

It didn’t really matter, as the car has already won everything it can win, but it was just the idea of them being so wrong, and me having documentation that they just ignored.

But I am disgusted enough that now, I’m not going to take this car to the Anniversary Meet in Grand Junction in July. Why bother? I’m just going to take my ’33 Driver, for ”˜Display Only’ I guess, and enjoy the scenery on the great tours that will be available there in Colorado.

Grumble, grumble, grumble....

I would hope that anyone who has judged, is a judge, or plans to be a judge has read and understood this post by ChevyGuru. DON'T MISS THE MAIN POINT. That being the refusal to accept documentation provided by the owner. In this case more than one reference.

The next point is that you never make a comparison of the judged vehicle with other vehicles on the field. In this case it appears that all of them were incorrect.

If your are a judge and don't know absolutely that you are correct in a deduction, DON'T DO IT, give the owner the benefit of the doubt.

Finally, if you are judging a high point vehicle, that is proof that the owner has gone to all lengths to present a correct vehicle.

I have been a judge at all levels since 1975 and have presented a number of my vehicles for judging. To have unjustified deductions is painful to say the least.

In the case presented by ChevyGuru it is not evident that the judging team passed the question up the line to include checking the reference material. In a case such as this it should follow the "chain of command" to the Head Judge for resolution.

Ray, In my opinion after studying the VCCA judging manual and attending a VCCA Judging school, You are absolutely right about this case. The man showed the best documentation he could have. The judging Team should have followed protocal rather than compareing his car to another on the field, I don't remember that being included (being compared to another car) in the VCCA Judging Manual. Which is displayed on the <VCCA.org> page in full.

Guru,

After all the time, effort, and money you've invested into your "well done" '25 Roadster it would be a real shame not expose it to the Anniversary Meet participants. It certainly has the potential of being awarded a "Best of Show - Four Cylinder" on a National level. Since you have recently offered the vehicle For Sale, this may be your last chance to participate with it on a National level, and if you carry through with your current plan, you're always going to wonder how the vehicle might have fared. Please reconsider!

I too had an issue with the 42nd Central Meet four cylinder Judging Team over my '28 Roadster not having a deck lid handle. Their statement, "It doesn't look right without one". In my case no points were deducted on that item, but I'm convinced they weren't concinced, they just couldn't prove or weren't sure what is correct.

Oldie and Guru, I have had the same thing happen to me at an Anniversary Meet. The team captain told the team as he walked up to my car that I had some wrong accesories on my car. I asked him to come to the back of my car and I could show him my accesorie catalog and prove they are correct. He did not want to see it and told me it would not make any difference. I will always believe it did make a difference. I came home empty handed when there were only four cars in the class. I have attended meets since then but judging in not important to me. I know what my cars are and I go touring.

See you down the Back Roads

Back Roads, that is why I like VCCA. VCCA ain't just about judging cars, I would like to go to a Chevrolet judging session, but it seems that I am always off on a tour.....What can I say?

Varroooom!

Well, Oldie, that is just the point. Actually, it has won "4 Cyl. - Best of Show" in a national event, 3 times.

But with the incorrect judging work described, what does it really mean? If I took it to Colorado, and the same guys were involved in judging it as were at the latest Central Meet, they would probably make the same mistakes.

Assuming the BOS cars are at 995 points or higher - if they decide to ding me 5 points for "Wrong Engine Color," or 8 points for "Incorrect Hubcaps" again, then I would not win that particular BOS. And some car with engine paint that actually WAS incorrect would beat me.

If showing the correct documentation and proof to the Chief Judge at a major Meet like the 42nd Central doesn't make any difference, then why would Colorado be any different?

Why subject myself to the potential frustrtion? If I take the '33, then there's no pressure, and I can take it on the tours...

But I do understand your point, too.

ChevyGuru: Exactly! Why submit yourself to that judging aggravation again? The trophies are not worth it, and why have your vacation spoiled by these judging inconsistencies in the first place? You know you have a great car and so does anyone that has seen it. You don't need a trophy to prove what everyone can see. It's amazing how your '25 roadster and Paul's '32 roadster both faced pretty much the same judging attitudes and lack of professionalism when both cars were judged. Those non-favorable memories will be there for a long time to come and the judging process is just not worth the grief involved.

By the way, you stated: "Assuming the BOS cars are at 995 points or higher.." I may be wrong here, and correct me if I am, but I have been told by those in the know that the BOS cars are picked by the Chief Judges and etc. and not by the high score.

At any rate, drive your car at the national meet in Colorado and have a great time! That is what the old cars are all about anyway!

That is essentially correct. It might be more accurate to say - "The Chief Judge, Assistant Chief Judge, and Deputy Judge(s) pick the B.O.S. cars from those cars that score highest in regular judging."

Normally, at most national shows, once the "normal" judging is done, then the Chief and Deputy judges will go and review the top 2 or 3 or 4 cars in each era (4cyl, 6cyl, etc) and reivew the cars themselves, to determine the BOS. This is done to achieve consistency. For example, maybe two different teams judged two cars, and both are 4 cylinders. One tean was slightly 'more strict' than the other. So the Chief & Deputies can look at both cars, and see that the deductions have been uniformly applied, nothing was missed, etc.

This normally works pretty well, as a "second check" on the truly outstanding cars.

BUT, if your car gets, say, 12 points knocked off, incorrectly - and there are 3 other very good cars, say at 992, 995, and 998 - yours will not get reviewed for Best of Show, because you are 'only' at 988.

Hope that made sense.

I see where you are coming from. I showed for many years until I had the same problem with my 1964 GTO. Got the "They didn't make them in 1964" and the "You made that one". I finally had enough of it and I just now visit and look. I don't show anymore. It has become the buy a new car off the lot and show in my area anyway. Don't let it bother you and just have a good time. You know you are correct and that is all that matters.

ChevyGuru: Thanks for the explanation on the BOS and how the system works. That makes sense. However, it is my understanding that the 1918 V8 that won overall BOS in Rapid City only scored around 945 points. If this is the case (and again, correct me if I am wrong because I am only going by what I was told by several dudes in the know) how can a car with only 945 points get BOS when many other cars scored higher? If this is true then can this be considered another judging inconsistency?

:confused: :confused: :confused:

I have no knowledge of that, have not previously heard that story. Wasn't there (Rapid City), unfortunately.

Ya, the topic came up right after the meet and I heard that story from several people that were involved in the judging process. Also, the owner of the winning car told me the same thing as well.

Again, I am just going by what knowledgeable dudes have said. So, if this scenario is true it is kind of hard to understand how a low scoring vehicle can win BOS, especially (again this is what I was told) when a car at that meet supposedly scored 999 points. Oh well....be that as it may.

Wow, that's an interesting story about the 1918 V8. I believe that vehicle is owned by the same individual who was the team captain of the four cylinder judging team at the 42th Central Meet.

Guru - What I was trying to say earlier was, Winning a BOS at an Anniversary Meet has to have more meaningful for both the vehicle and it owner than winning a BOS at a Regional Event sanctioned by National. Both should be cherished but the level of competition should be greater at an Anniversary Meet. Your '25 Roadster is a great example of what the VCCA is all about and to not show it off to those individuals from around this country that have never had an opportunity to see it is sad, in my humble opinion.

For me, I enjoy the Judging events and I'm aware that they are far from perfect. I do all of my own work on the vehicles I restore and I'm aware that they are far from perfect. I've gone throught periods of hurt and flustration from being told something isn't correct. I get over it after awhile and then I look at the returned judging sheets and decide if I need to or want to make changes to items that took a point(s) hit.
Sometimes a little research is required to make a judgment and sometimes I choose not to make a correction for what ever reason and sometimes the judge was just wrong. The engine color on my Roadster is incorrect, I know that, but 18 years ago when it was painted, Bill Hirsch's paint was the only game in town and for now I'm not changing it. I believe most of us in this conversation have been involved in the Judging process at one time or another and personnaly I wonder how many times I may have unknowingly given some poor smuck an undeserving point deduction that totally P---ed him off to the point that he never returned to the judging process again. That concerns me and I don't know how to fix it, short of not showing my cars or participating in the Judging process.

The short comings of the VCCA Judging process have all been discussed many times before on this site and as long as we have an all volunteer group doing the judging, who only do it once a year in most cases, and who aren't allowed to judge in their area of experdice because most of the time they own a vehicle in the area that is being judged, the system is as good as it's going to get.

I have tried to stay out of this discussion, waiting for a comment by the leaders of the Judging Committee. Obviously neither has happened. As Oldie, I also do most of my own work or closely supervise the work that I choose not to do. I also try to do my homework and understand what was originally done. Every project is different and something new is learned nearly every day.

I am not one who gets emotionally involved with judging. I do not feel that the process reflects on me personally. It is just a vehicle not an individual. I know it is not perfect and never will be.

I have been involved in VCCA and other club judging for over 30 years and feel that it is my duty to help and do what I can to make the process better. That way I understand the problems from both sides (as Judge and owner).

I also understand that I know my vehicles better than anyone else. That includes each of the non original items, finishes or ? I have never received 1000 points and never expect to do so. I have never received the total point deduction that I would give the vehicle if I judged it critically myself. (Remember that I know most of the mistakes.) I have on several occasions received deductions for items that were correct but the judges also missed more deductions than they took (either right or wrongly). So I have never felt that the overall result was too critical.

Now for Guru's Roadster. To receive 12 points in deductions particularly when the documentation was offered to the judging team is inexcuseable. It does not adhere to the published VCCA judging process. Fortunately it does not happen nearly as often as in the past but should never happen. Unfortunately, most of the cases that I am aware were at Central Meets. I and the other leaders at the Anniversary Meet will do what we can to make sure it does not happen at GJ. If there is a problem we will try our best to fix it promptly. We can not afford to have people not bring their best vehicles to the meet. The other members of the VCCA will benefit from seeing prime examples of each model and year so they can understand how to restore or improve their vehicles. If they are 1000 miles away in a garage they don't help in that endevour.

Here! here! We newbies really want to see what you gurus achieve with the same processes that we hope to master some day, By n By, maybe.

( I learned that Here! here! ! stuff from watching the tellie shows from over there in the Old Country)

ChevyGuru,

Quote: "It didn't really matter"

I have never had a car in competition and never will. Its all about fun for me.

If its that important why not require BONDING for the judges and a tribunal for disputes.

The local politics would soon be taken from the equation with regard to judging.

But what do I know?

This year has been probably one of the best years I have had in the hobby. Participated in 3 one day tours, 6 weekend tours, and 1 five day tour. did not win anything but had loads of fun and lots of good tire kicking at days end.

See you down the Back Roads.

Back Roads,

I hate to ask stupid questions but what is a tour? I know it covers a certain route.

I never knew you could win anything other than good friends.

Are there vehicle requirements?

You can win lotsa awards on a tour. "Hard luck", longest distance, peoples choice, "horse of a different color", the list goes on and on. Level of restoration only remotely correlates with the probability of winning any of them.

A tour is when two or more Vintage Chevrolets get together to drive to a destination. Some are more organized than others. The object is to complete the route with as much fun as possible. If someone has a problem it is manditory for a few anothers to stop and help.

I know some people on tours who go primarily to fix someone elses vehicle. Or at least it seems that way. Try it sometime they are a blast especially when I get to fix my own vehicle (before the crowd arrives) and someone elses too.

Bev and I like to drive our '29 Convertible Landau. We drove to Springfield in 2001 and covered about fourteen hundred miles and in August we drove to Lower Michigan Region weekend and put on about four hundred miles for instance. I do all the work, like my friends Oldie and Chipper.

We showed the car just one time, Nashville in 1991, scored a little less than nine hundred points and got a first because just a few cars in our class. Our friend,with a knock out 1931, scored over nine hundred and fifty points and wouldn't have been invited to the awards banquet except he had a ticket. Over a dozen cars in his class. No award.

My friend does not have cars anymore--- and Bev and I merrily motor (tour) along.

Don't know what that all means except......... Touring is a blast.

Gary

Gary, It appears that you are not alone in getting a blast out of touring. Touring is as old as a...well as old as a Sunday afternoon trip around the area in your Chevrolet , a picnic lunch and a walk in the park.

VCCA members are gravitating to club tours more and more, also we are getting new touring fans each time we have a tour, National, Area and Regional, organized tours expose the general public and people in some places that are off the beaten path to the wonderful old Chevrolets we love and drive. Yes.....Touring is a Blast!

Gentlemen, I will comment on this thread, though it might not be when Chip wants it to be! I regret that I do not have the time to spend as much as I would like on the Chat Site.

Guru's concerns have been taken down and will be passed on to those who might have to deal with this again. (Mainly, next year's Chief Judge)

Your comments about the documentation are correct. You should be concerned and we (judging committee), have been trying very hard to prevent just such a situation. The worst thing that can happen is when you have a situation where a deduction occurs for something that is correct.

I would be repeating most of what all of you have said because you are right. Here is what should have happened.

The judging team member noticed a difference in the color of Guru's engine paint. He or she should have expressed the concern about deduction to the team captain, which I am informed, did happen. Team members went to the Chief judge and the assistants to review. In talking to Guru, after documentation was shown and discussed, the team should have been instructed to not deduct. There was a breakdown in the system, why, well I was not there, but I have some possibilites.

Every chief judge that has elected to take the position have been great people and hardworking and respected members of this club. I can only name one, (who I will not name,) that has not cooperated with us in trying to make sure the the process of judging is carried out successfully.

In certain areas of the country the criteria for being a chief judge is to be a long-time and respected member of the club. That is a definite part of the selection process. However just because they are hard-working and respected does not mean that they will make a good chief judge. We have had situations where the attitude is that "This is the way we do it here and that is the way it will be done." This is my meet and we will run things my way." That is a recipe for failure!

I don't want to ramble on but if we are truly a volunteer organization these problems will continue to exist more than if we had paid individuals to travel the country to judge as in other clubs.

To be honest, Guru, I agree with Skipper. We know a good vehicle when we see them. It's too bad that some are still afraid to admit to our peers that we are not the Supreme Mukki Muck, the keeper of all Chevy knowledge. I will say this again to all who are afraid, it's OK to let others know you don't know everything. Until that time we will have to deal with "I know everything, I don't have to ask anybody anything." "This is my meet and we will do thing my way."

I would also like to comment on judging and touring. Our club has many member services to offer our club. Swap meets, costumes, model cars, tours, and judging are the many activities that we all can enjoy.

Touring is not the opposite of judging. Touring is not the way to "get back" at judging. In fact, we have a new proposal that will mesh the two together so that members can enjoy both.

We will be adopting a CDPC class of certification at National Meets, starting in 2007. CDPC stands for Chevrolet Driver Particpation Class. This is similar to the AACA program however we are going to be a bit different. We will have the opportunity to allow members to certify their vehicles as driver and touring vehicles. In order to certify in this class the vehicle must tour and certify at national meets. We don't have all of the items finished yet but it opens the way for more vehicles to enjoy our National Meets.

I ask all of you to not pit one against the other. We are all members of the same club with the same passion for Chevrolets.

We're listening and we are here.

Steve

Steve, I truly appreciate the comments. It is vital that the Judging Committee understand the view of members and address the problems directly. I do not know who held what position at the Central Meet but think I can make a good guess based on previous actions. Unfortunately the proposal to qualify judging managements particularly team captains, deputy and Chief Judges based on qualifications and adherance to "the book" has not been accepted by all those who run the meets. I am confident that it will change particularly when judging is recognized as a position to be coveted. Also when the meet leadership has to deal with the problems associated with selecting the wrong people.