VCCA Home Forums GENERAL DISCUSSION VCCA Judging Questions Glen Cove judging sheets?

Has anyone received their judging sheets back
from the Glen Cove, N.Y. August meet,
or does anyone know the status of them?

Thanks,
Greg Roser

Greg,

I e-mailed Steve Scott. He said that he has had the judge sheets ready for mailing for about a month. He is waiting for the Certificates that are prepared by another member.

John

Greg and John H. and all members waiting for the Glen Cove meet forms. Sorry for the delay in getting the Glen Cove forms back. John is correct however, I don't want to send the forms out without the certificates. I have contacted those involved and as soon as they come I will be mailing them out. We will work on this to speed this up, it should not take this long.

Steve

Steve,
Thank you for the response.

Gregory Roser

We just put the Glen Cove Meet forms and certificates in the mail. Just wanted to follow up. Thank for your patience.
:rolleyes:

I just received my Glen Cove judging sheets
in the mail today. In the 4 meets I have
been judged, in 3 states, by mostly different
judges, my point score has not varied more
than 7 points. That's 7/10ths of a percent!
That says a lot about how good our judging
system is.

Greg

I would agree that it is consistant but not ready to put it in the GOOD category yet. We still have a way to go to increase the knowledge of the judges where they feel comfortable and justified in making more deductions. With our if in "doubt don't deduct" system there are some deductions that are not being made.

Chip,
Yes, there is room for improvement, but I
still think it is a good system. I speak as
a judge, that I could certainly learn more about
the cars I judge. Most times, on a 5 person team,
there is someone else who can offer some guidance.
There is a consistency of scores as I said, but
there is NOT a consistency of deductions.
Rarely has the same deduction been taken twice.
Some are correct, but many are not.
This will continue to be a learning process.

Greg

I hope you did not infer or that I implied that it was not the best system for Vintage Chevrolets. Yes we have a way to go but have made much progress in the past couple of years. When we can get more accurate information in the hands of the owners and judges then improvement is unavoidable.

Greg and ChevyChip,

I agree with Greg, my scores are consistant, but not for the same deductions. I too have been in the judging process (VCCA, AACA, NMCOA). The system is only going to be as good as the leadership wants it to be. After the judges have done their job (and in my opinion were more than fair) it shouldn't be suggested by a National Board member that we take a closer look at the car..... that perhaps the judges might reduce their deductions so that the car can make the 901 cutoff. If I remember correctly, I think the analogy was to "just shoot a arrow right over his head".... and he'll get the message. :confused:

John

I have had the same experiance thru the years.The total score would be the same but the various four catagories would vary each time.Its all in the eyes and standards of the individual judge.They are all human and see things in a different way.
Just because someone is a National board member dosen't mean they can judge all the year cars on the field correctly.Thats why the head judge on his "men" recheck the best of show cars for a final decision.It would be almost impossible to go out and rejudge each car over again.I have seen this same problem in other clubs.I guess its just the human element.

John,
I was trying to stay out of this and not play into it but.... This situation that you are mentioning I was asked to address by the Captain of your team and another member of that team, and the Chief Judge. I did not invite myself into it, and I wish I was not involved at all! I WAS NOT SPEAKING TO YOU AS A NATIONAL BOARD MEMBER, but rather as a member of the VCCA who is on the judging committee, and one of the Instructors of the VCCA Judging School, and also the Assistant Chair of the Judging Committee,to explain VCCA philosophy to some of the members of the team who did not attend a school, but not as a NATIONAL BOARD MEMBER. I am sure that is a misunderstanding on your behalf. Even with all of your prior judging experiance with other groups, you have only judged in the VCCA system maybe three or four times at the most, and you must admit that you really are not that familiar with the VCCA system and philosphy. We differ from most other clubs in the fact that we do not hide behind the form, and we proudly return the form to the owner to be used as a tool to help them, and encourage further participation. A large part of our philosophy is based around the returning of the sheets. It is a great help that you have all of this other working knowledge, but you need to keep an open mind when using a different system, and not try to incorperate a different system into ours. To be honest most of the problems we have are due to experienced judges from other clubs assuming our philosphy is the same as another club. I also did try to point out to you that day our philosophy clearly states that we are a touring club also and we are to keep that in mind when we judge a car, that we encourage our members to use their cars to participate in all of our events. That was a comment for some reason that you took personal. The reason I asked the team to look at the car again was because the total if I remember correctly was around 895, and was rather close to 901. I explained that a 901 is a warning shot over someones head, letting them know that some work is needed or their status will slip next time out. An 895 is just a little to close,this is even tought in the school. At this point you began compairing the car to other cars on the field, as I recall you said "this car is not worthy to have the same award as that car," and "if I have to look at that car again I will take off more points." Loud enough that the owner heard you, and wanted his car removed from judging. I told the Chief Judge if he wanted to allow the car to be removed it was fine in this case. I am sorry if you don't understand that 895 is a smack in the face, and if we did not return the form it would not have even been an issue. I did say either it is a 901 or a 845, but not a 895. It was also a repeat preservation car, pretty close to filling the board, only meaning that this is a pretty active member who uses their car, while trying to maintain it. I also pointed out that this car just participated in over 300 miles of touring in some pretty wet weather, 48 hours prior to judging, and we did not have a wash station at the hotel, because they wanted to charge us $900 for a hose connection. After our conversation ended that day you shook my hand and said as far as you were concerned that the issue was over, but I gather from your post that is not case, almost three months later. I would suggest that you attend a school if one comes your way, I think it will help you understand our philosphy much better. Any further questions or comments you or any other member has on this issue I will be more than happy to deal with in private, but not on the site.

Greg, We track the consistancy and we find that we are within 15 points from meet to meet. I am glad you appreciate it, I too have noticed the same thing with deductions some things are wrong but the bottom line is consistant. As Chip knows this is part of a long term effort, and Steve and the Committee have worked very hard in getting things going right. It seems we are always walking a fine line but we do not want our system to become one that does not encorage owners to use their cars. Greg Thanks for the compliment.
If I wanted confrontation I would go to work, I do this to relax and to be with friends, last time I looked it is a hobby, not a job!
see you down the road,
John Mahoney

One of the reasons that there is a lack of
consistency in where I get my deductions
could be the fact that we DO get the judging
sheets returned. There are some valid deductions
that I received in areas that I overlooked.
I have since researched & corrected those areas,
so now the judges have to look harder for something else. I by no means have a perfect car,
but the more I compete, the better I get in
finding those small areas where there might
be a 1 or 2 point deduction. Yes, some
deductions are invalid, but those balance out
with those that they may have missed. We as
owners can be our own worst critic, as we may
see some flaws that a judge is never likely to
see. As it all seems to balance out in the end,
I try not to get upset over invalid deductions.
After all, I do this for fun, not to be a
nervous wreck every time my car is judged.

John & John, I hope you work out your differences
as I hope to see you both next year.

Greg

John348,

For what it's worth, It sure sounds to me like you did the right thing, especially in light of the "big picture" you have described.

John348,

I appreciate you trying to clear up the matter. However, your story is a bit off. It wasn't 895, it was less.... about 889 or less. At least 2 other members of the team also said that they were very generous with their judging. Yes, I did try to explain to you that I quit deducting when I knew the car wasn't going to make 901.... and if I had to go back, I would judge it accordingly and it would result in more deductions.

I have attended a VCCA judging school.... you can verify that with Steve Scott..... so you can suggest away.... next! I am familiar with the VCCA Judging Manual. I have not found any statement in the manual that tells the judges that because "our philosophy clearly states that we are a touring club also and we are to keep that in mind when we judge a car". If I'm wrong on that..... tell me what page. :confused:

On page 3 it does state "The judging process has been developed so that a vehicle can participate in these activities (i.e. touring etc.) and still move through the awards system successfully." Then it continues by stating The function of the judging process is to provide a way for our membership to evaluate the historical correctness, workmanship, authenticity, and condition of our Vintage Chevrolets. It is the owner's understanding that when they decide to have their vehicles judged that we, as club members, are comparing their vehicles to how the manufacturer delivered the vehicles to the dealer and on to the public.

Dirt from the tour wasn't the problem! We overlooked the dirt. It was the rust, the broken parts, the pitted chrome, etc. etc. etc. Again, correct me if I'm wrong..... but that isn't how the manufacturer delivered the car to the dealer!

I would stongly suggest that if what you say is true about the VCCA philosophy..... then change the wording in the judging manual. You did say that you are on that committee...... didn't you?

Why have a 1000 point system at all? Explain to me what a 750 point Chevrolet would look like? What would a 500 point Chevrolet look like? There is no way the car in question was 900 points (or 90%) correct or in 90% condition!

You say the owner heard me..... maybe..... but why did you then need to go search him out after our "debate" to discuss the car and the fact that it wasn't going to make it this time?

I respect the fact that Steve (our team captain) stuck by his team, and did not have us re-judge the car! I don't think he would have made that decision if I were the only team member that had a problem with the car receiving another preservation.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the car owner in question a member of your region? :o

Sorry John, but when you have the title.... like it or not, you are ALWAYS speaking as a National Board member.

You are right though, I have only judged 4 times with the VCCA + Cindy and I went to Judging School. You also stated: "To be honest most of the problems we have are due to experienced judges from other clubs assuming our philosphy is the same as another club." After my experiences with the VCCA in 2003, you need not worry about me adding to your problems in 2004. My wife Cindy has taken off her "runner" shoes too!

However, I won't give up my membership in the VCCA. My membership permits me to continue reading the judging manual, to vote for National Board members (by the way Steve Scott.... you got my vote!) and basically to join the dialog here, even when the facts are a bit unknown or twisted.

John

John348,

I remember when we first met.... one of the things you spoke of was how after members get their badges, they seem to disappear and not come back.

HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM!

John :rolleyes:

John, The only thing you did not debate is that you said it was over, and as far as you were concerned a dead issue. I only hope you reconsider and attend future events, you and your family will be missed.
Keep on having fun :)
John

John348,

OK.... dead issue.... We (Cindy and I, April & Melissa) will continue to have fun!

John :love: