VCCA Home Forums TECHNICAL - GENERAL Mechanical - Engine, Trans, etc wheel cyl/brk hose leak

Well here I am back with a brake related question Last April I replaced front shoes, wheel cyl and brk hose on my 47. The question then was whether or not there should be a washer at the brake line/wheel cyl connection. The answer given was yes a copper washer should be there. I have been trying ever since then to get that connection completely sealed. It has seeped fluid ever since. Leave car sit over night and put you finger on it the finger will come back a little wet from fluid. I have tried a different copper washer, tried a different hose and the darn thing still seeps a little. Figured I got a bad wheel cylinder so I ordered another cyl and brake hose from a different supplier (NAPA) than the prev ones came from. This cyl came with a copper washer. Put everything together and it still seeps. Surely two cylinder each from different supplier would be bad (possible they get them from same manufacturer) Question is : Has anyone else had a similar problem recently ? I've replaced cyl & hoses many times over the years and never had this problem. Appreciate advice, thoughts, comments, etc.

Thank: Dick

You can try softening the washer by heating it with a torch and quench in water.

I like the idea of heating the washer to soften it but doesn't quenching harden it ???

Not copper. It does the opposite of steel. Work hardened copper will soften when quenched.

Dick,

The only thing I can think of is that each time you assemble hose to the wheel cylinder you're not tightening it enough.

Do this:

a. Take the hose loose at both ends so that it can turn.
b. Run the hose. with the copper washer installed, into the wheel cylinder.
c. Use a line wrench and tighten the hose good and snug. This means you must use muscle memory to not overtighten it but plenty to crush the copper washer so that it form tightly into the small circular grooved in the wheel cylinder and the hose end.
d. Hook up the other end at the frame bracket with the copper washer there using the same tightness.
c. replace the hose keeper.

I'd bet that the problem lies at some point in the above process.

Another thought: Are you sure that the fluid is not coming from a bypassing of a wheel cylinder cup and then tracing down to the edge of the line fitting?

Good luck with it. Something as you're experiencing can make a preacher cuss.

Good luck,

Charlie

If you tap the bolt with a hammer as you tighten the last little bit you can help the copper washer to seat. It doesn't take any more torque so breaking something is not more likely.

Good to know. Thanks

Charlie & Chipper - I followed Charlie's steps and even used a hammer on the end of the wrench in a effort to tighten more trying stop the seep.

Is it possible I have distorted the copper washer although it seeped b/4 the hammer use ???

Thought about trying 2 copper washers ??

Dick

The washer is copper so that it will distort and seal.

Chipper may be right about the tapping but it should not be necessary. (Where in the world did you come up with that Chipper? Sounds like some Granny Clampett wisdom. )

I don't think using two copper washers will result in a better seal. If anything, it will prevent a seal.

Best,

Charlie

Since the hose and wheel cylinder are new I would suspect the sealing surfaces are not square or perhaps a hairline crack in one or the other. Something may have not been machined correctly.

Dave

Do you mean back side of cyl where hose threads in or do you mean the end of the wrench ??

Thanks

Thought of that but odds of getting 2 cyl and hoses with same defect are pretty slim especially since I bought from 2 diff parts stores

Thanks: Dick

Hi Dick,

I have had a couple of similar "can't explain or stop" the leak situations with brake systems. I agree that you are doing all the right things.

In both of the recent situations I did what scares the heck out of me. I used a lot more tightening force than normal.

The best I could determine is that the copper washer was not deforming enough to create a good seal. I have had better results using smooth copper washers compared to those that have ridges or grooves on the faces. The worse case is when the washer and one of the mating parts both have grooves. It is almost impossible to get the grooves to interlock!

In many cases the same manufacture supplies product for most brand names (Brake Parts Inc.) not sure in your case. It does sounds like you are tightening it enough so what else? Does the copper gasket fit tight on the threads of the hose? Maybe there is something not right with the threads or pitch on the hose and wheel cylinder?

Dave

After trying two diff cylinders, two diff hoses and heating the copper washer I am still trying to get this leak stopped. You say BPI most likely supplies the brake parts for whatever brand the parts stores sell ? I went to their web site and according to a map of their manufacturing sites they have none in the US. China, Mexico and a few other locations but no US.
Think I'll start looking for an NOS cylinder for the right front (#5300953)(36-48) in the hopes it will have been made in US. I If I find an old one I can always put new rubber seals in it as the orig most likely are dried out by now. If anyone reading this has one appreciate contacting me thru this post of PM . Thanks
What started out as a simple project has turned into long frustrating one.

Dick

How does the washer fit on the hose, is it close to being tight on the threads? Any chance the hoses are bottoming out in the cylinder before being fully tight? Sorry, guess I am grasping at straws.

The Filling Station has the cylinders listed you might give them a try.

I will not be in the shop for a week or so but I may have a rebuild-able used Delco cylinder if you don't source a better one.

Dave

Dave: In The pkg of brake hose copper washers I bought the 7/16 one is not a tight fit and the next size small (3/8 will not go on. We thought (as you did) of the possibility the hose bottoming out first but how does one determine that. I'm about out of straws at this point.

I figured on calling The Filling Station and COF and ask where theirs are manufactured.

I would think an older Delco brand would not have been mfg overseas. As long as the surface where the hose attaches is good the inside can be sleeved if it is bad.

Get in touch after you get back.
Really appreciate your effort in helping me resolve this problem.

Dick

Dick
To check if the hose is bottoming out try fitting it without the washer, if the shoulder of the hose goes all the way down to below the washer thickness or hard down that is not your problem.
I am having a similar issue with resleeved cylinder but it appears to be leaking between the new sleeve and the parent metal.
Tony

Tony: Thanks, will try that method. At least my leak is on the outside of the backing plate whereas yours is inside where it could get on your brake lining.

Dick

Here is an update on my wheel cylinder/brake hose leak on my 47.
Russell said Rockauto had some cylinders listed showing USA on the side. Went there and he was correct, (ACDELCO brand) I ordered one and wanting matching brand (ACDELCO)brake hose ordered one of those also (even though it did not show where it was made) hoping it too would be USA item. That was done Monday (6/15) afternoon. Box showed up yesterday (6/18). Rock gets a ATTA BOY from me for service Upon opening the box I discovered Both items were marked Made in China! Needless to say I was upset! Got on their web site to get number so I could call customer service. Found out the only number shown was for their corporate office and all customer service/returns inquiries has to go through their online site. Can not talk to a live person. Now they get a AH S--T from me for user friendly procedure on the web site. Spent several hours last evening and finally got the return approved. Shipped back today with a not too nasty note in box that the item was clearly misrepresented on the listing and I did not want the items replaced and expected a refund.
Called FS and asked them if they had a Made in USA wheel cylinder. He said all of theirs were made elsewhere and wished me a Good Luck in my quest. I then called COF and asked the same. Was told the Country of Origin was US. Same for the brake hose. I ordered both items and was explicit in telling him I would be highly upset if they were not made in USA .
Hopefully they will be correct and once installed my leaking problem will be resolved.

Dick

Did the new parts fix your leak?

Dave

Dave: MY bad for not updated my post. Sorry about that. The items from COF arrived and upon open the box I found that both were made in China. I called and asked for (name not shown) as he was the one that told me both were made in USA. I happened to call on his day off so I had to go through the whole story with someone new. He listened and said that he would look up the parts on his terminal. He the description does say they were made in USA. Obviously their information was wrong and he would get that changed so no one else would give bad info. He expressed COFs apology several times and said to return the items for full refund. Since it was looking like no manufacture in the USA makes these, I proposed to him I would be willing to try them and if they leaked I could return them after being tried. He said that would be OK but had to clear it with someone. Within 5 minutes he called back and said OK to try them and if not satisfied to return for full refund. My friend and I installed the wheel cylinder and hose the following weekend. After bleeding the brakes and wiping everything clean and dry we blocked the brake pedal so there was pressure on the system. Left is sit over night (disconnected battery) and checked next day. All was looked dry. Held a tissue on the joint and one really had to look hard to see a slight dampness on the tissue. I have considered it to be OK finally. If the same plant in China made all the ones I tried, this one must have been from another run or different operator. Any way I'm fixed. Thanks for asking.

Dick

PS I did get my refund from Rock. I haven't looked but wonder if they have removed the USA from their illustration of the cylinder.