VCCA members have access to a list of over 50 Technical Advisors who can help you with your car. It's worth the price of membership! While you can get a lot of information for free in this forum, sometimes the info that you REALLY need is only available from the right person. This is what "The World's Best Chevrolet Club" is all about!
I can understand your thoughts on the instant matter. You're correct. The subject re ethanol is a popular one. Some of us seem to go on about it, ad nausea.
The merits, or lack of them, concerning ethanol is interesting to some of us. There has been a heap of posts relevant to the subject. That is a testament of the interest associated with the merits of ethanol. More than may seem warranted. Yet it does draw attention.
I would suggest, if I may, that anyone not interested in any thread having to do with ethanol related posts merely bypass it. The smoke and mirrors and facts will continue to be debated for some time.
There is much to be gained by participating in the (Club) web sigh despite the constant enlightening and bickering that some of us, including me, are engaged in concerning ethanol.
I hope you will take advantage of the more suitable topics/threads (to you) that come down the pike. Many may be of significant interest to you.
Please don't leave the site owing to dissatisfaction with the instant topic.. Some times we talk about more pleasing things. such as 1941 Chevrolets. Do too! :
Best wishes,
Charlie
BTW: If those of us who post about ethanol get out of line then our monitors gently nudge us back. I salute them for their service to the Club. It may be like trying to drive cats. I think we may pay too much attention to mere opinions rather than based on scientifically proven facts (redundant) it may make their work load lighter.
BTW2: Let's not lose sight of the fact that this Club is just that that: a club. Accordingly, for the sake of nothing better to do, we are going to engage in harmless discussion. Feel free to join in whenever you feel like it or abstain, your call but, again, please don't leave the site.
Charlie, It just seems to me that 20 - 25 of the Club members read the forums and are active on in this forum. Most of the VCCA members read the D&G magazine not this web site. I'm sorry but that is the way I feel. .
Rick You are wrong if the definition in USA is the same as we use in Europe: E 85 is 85% ethanol and 15% gas. E stands for ethanol%. E 15 contains 15% ethanol.
Solan G, # 32797
Take advantage in your hobby by being member of VCCA!
"In the United States, the exact ratio of fuel ethanol to hydrocarbon may vary according to ASTM 5798 that specifies the allowable ethanol content in E85 as ranging from 51% to 83%."
"The 85% fraction is commonly sold at pumps worldwide (outside the US), and when specifically supplied or sold as E85 is always 85% ethanol (at pumps or in barrel)"
"In countries like Australia where E85 is always 85% ethanol (and pump fuel with varying fractions is called "flex fuel"), performance motoring enthusiasts and motor racing clubs/championships use E85 extensively (without the need for any FFV certification)."
Department of Transport (GB) has just recently decided to keep the lowgraded ethanol gas E 5 until 2026 to avoid problems for vehicles/engines not built for E 10 use. The introduction was ment to happen already in 2008/9.
Strange still to read here that some few still is strongly denying any technical problems due to ethanol other people have experienced and suffered from both in USA, Europe and Oceania. Keep your believes but how can you possibly know about their experiences? If we cannot use suitable, safe gas types in our vehicles we will end up with storing them in museums, barns and after yards, into nails.
EU some few years ago decided to keep a low-ethanol gas (E 5), making it mandatory when the regular gas would pass E 10. This will probably happen in Norway this year and some decisions about distribution will have to be made soon.
According to some of the Norwegian insurance companies the fires among most rear engine cars in Norway now is caused by the influence ethanol makes to hoses, even newer ones. They have now informed customers about possible reducing the compensation after damage if the damage is due to long-time use of ethanol-blended gas. Engine manufacturers also make reservations about ethanol use. Strange point of view if the ethanol is so safe for all vehicles/engines as someone here claims.
Ethanol has a lot of disadvantages to non-ethanol gas: It is: hygroscopic, electrostatic, strong solvent destroying gaskets/hoses/glass fiber tanks, gives less power and more consumption, creates vapor lock and overheating easier, less efficient start in cold weather, is even subsidized and much more dangerous when on fire.
The people using fossil running marine engines in their boats and marine engine producers also have trouble with ethanol: (Written in 2018 but unfortunately still valid)
Very cool removal method. I was aware of using water to test for ethanol in a sample but never thought about actually using it to remove the ethanol. Gas storage tanks at gas stations have a pretty decent layer of water on the bottom of the tank just from condensation and handling. The pickups for the pumps are above this water level so no water is sucked in and occasionally this layer of water must be removed before it gets to the pickup level...
If done carefully and cleanly, this could work well for small batches for small engine usage so that you can produce your own lower octane level fuels that are ethanol free. I think I will try this once winter goes away.
Stay safe Solan!
Last edited by canadiantim; 04/12/2010:19 AM.
1938 Canadian Pontiac Business Coupe (aka a 1938 Chevy Coupe with Pontiac shaped front sheet metal - almost all Chevy!) 1975 4-speed L82 Vette
Hi there canadiantim Could I ask why you would want to do this? I think we live relatively close to each other (as western Canada goes) so I'll share my experience here. In years past we didn't have much trouble with our engines, but I always gave each one a generous dose of methanol at the beginning of winter. As much as a quart in trucks and cars. But we have a few engines that were finicky, have very small jets and passages in the carburetors, and still gave a little trouble. Especially the cranking engines on old John Deere 2 cylinder diesels. I'd clean them up and in no time they again wouldn't run without the choke, and didn't have enough power to crank the diesel properly. We buy our bulk gas from Es**, it's regular grade, and it comes out of a refinery in Alberta. When they notified us that they were adding alcohol we drained a little off the bottom of the storage tank just to make sure there wasn't any water in it. Strangely there wasn't. Since then we have had no gasoline issues whatsoever. Nothing. And I don't remember those cranking engines ever running as good as they do now. Even after sitting 9 months with a full tank of gas they start and run just like they did when they were last shut off.
That said... our neighbors buy gas that comes out of a Saskatchewan refinery and they all claim they have to buy premium grade gas to keep their lawn mowers, auger engines, etc running right. Go figure...
Many, many nasty occurences with Ethanol in gas particularly with small engines that sit a lot between uses. Ethanol has been shown to eat fuels lines, floats, carb bodies, plastic fuel tanks, produces less power than pure gasoline, forms a snot like substance if it gets wet in a marine or humid environment and has an extremely shorter shelf life before it degrades - about a month.
If you are buying Bulk gas, you may be getting ethanol free or lower% by default as they know you will be storing it. Even gas stations must store Ethanol separate from the gasoline until you pump it as it only stays fresh about a month.
I too put a gallon of Methyl Hydrate (gas line antifreeze) in our cars in one shot in the fall as preventative maint to remove any condensation before it can cause grief freezing over the winter. This has different characteristics than Ethanol that is blended in at the gas station and is a small percentage for one tank. You can test your fuel for ethanol using a water test found on Youtube, etc. Might be worth testing.
The good thing with Ethanol is that it can help prevent some freezing in your fuel and is just fine for modern vehicles that see regular use to use up the gasoline. It only causes grief when it sits or gets exposed to humidity. Ethanol leads many people to give me small engine devices like chainsaws that no longer work since the carbs/fuel systems are trashed and I just repair them and keep ethanol away forever. I buy 92 Octane at Shell Or PetroCanada as they have 0% Ethanol in it. Daily driver cars get regular 10% Ethanol since it's no concern if it's always getting cycled.
Many small engines run stronger on lower octane than 92 so that is where this process might work to get lower octane with no Ethanol present. Higher Octane (and Ethanol) actually retard the combustion flame spread so in theory can weaken an engine's output/starting depending on the engine's characteristics. Low compression lawnmower engines are one example that prefer lower octane fuel.
Cold helps preserve the fuel...being in Sask might be helping lol.
Last edited by canadiantim; 04/12/2002:24 PM.
1938 Canadian Pontiac Business Coupe (aka a 1938 Chevy Coupe with Pontiac shaped front sheet metal - almost all Chevy!) 1975 4-speed L82 Vette
What time of year do you buy your fuel? There are very different blends for winter use vs summer use to prevent Vapour lock, etc. I almost wonder if your bulk buy is a different blend completely compared to what Joe Q Public gets at the pump since they do expect it to sit around. Now I'm very curious. Wonder what Chipper can tell us about Bulk fuels...
1938 Canadian Pontiac Business Coupe (aka a 1938 Chevy Coupe with Pontiac shaped front sheet metal - almost all Chevy!) 1975 4-speed L82 Vette
Hi again Ethanol isn't nearly as corrosive as methanol is. You want to be sure you will be using the methanol shortly and not leave it in the system. It especially likes to eat the older (about 1962 and earlier) white metal carbs and fuel pumps. And methanol won't stay mixed with gas like ethanol will (up to a point). I may be wrong, but I think I remember reading that ethanol concentrations below about 10% will stay mixed by itself, above that something needs to be added to keep it there. Methanol on the other hand goes right to the bottom of the tank when you add it and stays there. That's why it works so well as a deicer out on the road. It finds all the low spots where the water lays and freezes. Maybe it's that suspending additive that gives the trouble?
We actually have the tank filled at any and all times of the year, but you are absolutely right about the volatility and we do try not to go into the winter with a full tank of summer gas as starting will not be as good. Many people don't know that the volatility of gas is adjusted seasonally and from place to place. Undoubtedly you've noticed you get better mileage if you fill up at Banff (high altitude) or down in Drumheller (where it's hot). And better in the summer than in winter.
I'm pretty sure regular 87 octane bulk fuel "must" contain ethanol here, but again, I could be wrong. We leave everything full when not in use to prevent condensation and have never had any trouble. We've even had a few engines sit for several years without trouble. The one time I saw trouble was about 30 years back (long before ethanol) in a snowmobile that sat for 10 years. The black fuel line in the tank turned to snot as you said.
Anyway, hope everyone is well and having a good day!
PS canadiantim, we should meet for coffee some time! I'm sure we'd have lots to talk about!
We've even had a few engines sit for several years without trouble. The one time I saw trouble was about 30 years back (long before ethanol) in a snowmobile that sat for 10 years. The black fuel line in the tank turned to snot as you said.
Anyway, hope everyone is well and having a good day!
PS canadiantim, we should meet for coffee some time! I'm sure we'd have lots to talk about!
Don't know about Canada.
In the USA, ethanol has been around at least 100 years.
In the 1930's it was just called alcohol
In the 1970's it was called gasahol
Today, it is called MANY THINGS most of them bad.
Seems we don't teach reading and history in our school systems, and every second generation has to relearn the mistakes of their grandfathers!
Hi carbking I think we talked on the phone a while back when I was looking for a W-1. I think we came to the conclusion that the situation was very different between where you and I are, and I think I remember you telling me about other non alcohol and troublesome constituents or fractions that are now mandated to be in your gas that weren't in the past? I don't recall the details though. I would like to learn more about that if you would be willing to expound on that?
As to my snowmobile experience... I guarantee there was no alcohol in our regular grade bulk gas at that time. None. There was however a purple dye (which I always thought might be a little problematic) for tax identification purposes. It isn't used any more. And come to think of it, that may be part of the reason we don't have any problems now. Hmmm?
most of them bad.