At Mike’s strong urging, I’m tackling my brakes sooner rather than later. I went ahead and ordered new wheel cylinders and hoses all the way around. Shoes are on the way and drums turned. There was mention of a new master cylinder in the recent years before the car came to me...so assumed I would leave that and the lines alone. As I started taking things apart I found stuck bleeders and the hoses stuck on the wheel cylinders. Good choice that I ordered new and just didn’t try to flush the old fluid out. I got one side’s hose off at the hard line, but so far haven’t been able to get the other side off (working on the front first). If I fail (or Mike lectures me again :) ) I guess I’m in new brake line town. I’m wondering if I should just be done with it and refresh the whole system from the master cylinder to the wheels, just so I have a known good starting point. I’m already at about $300, lines and master cylinder are another $300ish. I was looking at stainless lines, but I searched (see Mike, I listen) and am thinking I’ll go regular steel and be judicious about flushing.
If you do replace the lines I would not get stainless. They are more difficult to work with, fittings tend to leak more etc. The present steel lines lasted 80 years ....what more can be said.If nothing else just freshen-upthe master cylinder by installing a new kit.
Maybe I am missing something that is unique to the 1941 car. Normally Chevy only had 3 3-way connectors in the system. The one in the rear was normally a tee. The one in the middle of the car could be a tee or a "y". The one at the front was normally a "y". Take a look at page 105 of the 1941 Master Parts Catalog.
The block is used to connect the steel line to the rear cylinder. It is not a Tee. There is a block at each rear wheel. It uses a special hollow bolt.
I agree with Mike that you should not get cheap with brakes. And make sure you get the new sealing washers to connect the hoses to the front wheel cylinders and the blocks to the rear wheel cylinders.
Maybe I rounded up. I see: A tee below the fuel pump (going left and right...then back) A tee on the passenger side about where the master cylinder is (going front and back) A fee above the rear axle on the passenger side that goes left (line), hose (right out of the front of the tee) and forward (out of the passenger side of the tee)
Does the block have male threads that go towards the wheel cylinder and receives the line coming from that last tee?
All that I have see have been female fittings on all of the "Tees" and the line ends are male on each end of the lines. Chevs of the 40's or the Filling Station sell replacements for many of these so you might be able to see some pictures before climbing under the car...
1938 Canadian Pontiac Business Coupe (aka a 1938 Chevy Coupe with Pontiac shaped front sheet metal - almost all Chevy!) 1975 4-speed L82 Vette
I have had some luck using a flare wrench by trying to tightening the fitting just like an 1/8 of an inch then trying to loosen it, this is after overnight soaking with a penetrant oil. If you are careful removing the brake lines I think you will find your brass fittings may not need replacing, just a good cleaning, and maybe a mild media blasting. I have attached pictures of my fittings, and their locations, including the one at the master cylinder. I do have extra fittings to sell if you find one that Chevs of the 40's doesn't handle.
Its not uncommon to end up having $800 in parts for a good brake job. It is also common to find that the steel lines can rust from the inside out because of moisture in the system so after all these years it is wise to change them. If you're not sure of the condition of the master cylinder it might be a good idea to take it apart and see whether it needs rebuilding or replacement. While at it your master cylinder serves as the mount for your brake and clutch pedals. Because of this you need to lubricate the parts that hold the pedals. Here are a few more pictures that cover this.
Thanks Mike. A huge help as always. I saw pics of the block at the rear wheel cylinder, but I didn’t get that the bolt went thru it. I think I see a copper washer on both sides of the thru block?
And....if/when I get any junctions off. Degreaser then final rinse in brake fluid? Or brake cleaner?
Great progress in 24 hours, with a job and family duties. All brake line junctions, tees, etc are freed up. New brake lines ordered. Also on order master cylinder rebuild kit and a pair of those hollow bolts for the rear wheel cylinders (mine looked pretty rusty). Front wheel cylinders, shoes, hose, and all hardware replaced. Question...is there a trick to get the shoe hold down springs on? That was the hardest part of my evening.
Scott When I was doing my apprenticeship we didnt have "brake cleaner" as it is now, we used methylated spirits, it dries without leaving a oily film like most other cleaners. Tony
I use lacquer thinner for a lot of cleanup, "bad Mike?" There are tools for installing the brake spring, but the best tool is patience. Check out Youtube for help.
Good to hear of all your progress. Are you repainting the parts, and if you are is it compatible with brake fluid?
As to the shoe lateral holding springs shown above. It's kind of like "The Karate Kid" movie. Change wax on, wax off to twist on, twist off. Merely use a pair of pliers.
Don't buy anything that you don't really need. Only those things that can't be fixed. A twisted brake line is one of those things.
The master cylinder and the wheel cylinders may be honed and then function well,
Do buy new kits for the MC and the WCs. Most parts stores carry them. O'riely for one.
Do buy new bonded shoes.
Do turn drums if they are scared up deeply. If nothing else it helps in adjusting the shoes to the drums.
Don't wash and fiddle with the blocks. Just rinse off with most any solvent and blow out (dry).
It is likely the old lines will be just fine. They were made way stronger than needed be. They last and last. If you're worried about them then just take them loose and use some pressure to determine if any weak spots are present. If so, merely wrap some tape around the weak spot (a piece of inner tube and a small clamp will get you home). A noticeable drip underneath where the spot was noted will give you enough warning that your brakes are getting low on fluid or a soft peddle may indicate that air has entered the system. Think that you are broke and have no other recourse but make it work. Like way out on the loneliest highway in the U.S. A.
If low fluid or soft peddle manifest themselves then drive slowly and give yourself plenty of room behind the mobile you're following. Pull over and investigate for cause.
I once brought a 41 cabriolet all the way from Hudson, IL to Fayetteville, NC through the mountains with just two pistons our of eight working. Piece o'cake. Use the parking brake if needed. That's why we often call it the emergency brake. It is totally mechanical. Use engine and gears to help slow the car. If lack of brakes scare you then try driving a motor boat.
Save your money for something important like a nice accessory.
Where is your daring and sense of adventure?
Best,
Charlie
BTW: Some may venture to say that I am full of it. Maybe so, but I'm careful to not endanger others whilst driving and don't suggest that you do either. Just do your homework and know what you got and you will do just fine. :When you have driven your car enough you get a sense of it systems and mechanics and know when something is not right. Don't push it. And, don't ever drive an old car like a bat out of h--l. dance:
I am a firm believer in doing a complete replacement of all brake components on any older vehicle that hasn't had major brake work done fairly recently, within the past decade or two. It can usually be done for about $1000 to $1200. Not much if you value your life.
I, also, value money, especially when thrown away owing merely to scare tactics.
If you know the mechanics of your car then you will have plenty of warning before anything catastrophic happen that would cause forfeiture of you life. I have never heard of instant brake failure. Such an event would always be proceeded by tell -tell signs. A judicious owner would never ignore such signs. Get real.
I agree with Rusty Heaps that doing a complete brake job on a car that has an unknown brake system is important. I don't believe that simply replacing everything is necessary or beneficial. Following recommended (by the MFG.) practices is in my opinion the safest way to proceed. Most will spell out inspection and repair procedures and if followed will allow for safe operation. To do different is risky and you could end up REAL dead. I have never know a mechanical part that would fail at a good time or let you know when it is ready to fail-only proper inspection by a competent person can do that and there is still no guarantee that a failure will not occur. As the owner of the truck dealership that I worked for would say - "Trucks do two things-they work and they break-and not necessarily in that order or when you want them to". Cars are no different.
Please itemize the cost of parts that would, when added up, equal $1K to 1.2K.
Just a clear, reasonable estimate for each part and its source will surface.
Steve D,
The all caps used in post about being "real" dead is puzzling. Dead is dead. You can't be no deader than just plain old dead. So why are you shouting? According to BB that's what using caps means.
Also, please define "complete brake job." Does that always mean throwing $1,000 to $1,200.
Also #2. I too believe that inspecting an unknown brake system is important. According to some one should order all the parts of the brakes before inspecting.
I don't believe that there's is much of anything to be gained by my trying to talk some sense here. Accordingly, if you and RH will answer the information requested in a clear articulable manner, I will either die (meaning just dead) or drop out of this here thread a happier man. Will too!
Best,
Your humble pal,
Charlie
BTW: Here is my attempt to come up to the $1200 figure:
a. NOS Brake Drums $240.00 (That's what I sell them for) (Assuming the drums cannot be turned)
b. NOS or NOSR wheel cylinders (with fresh new kits) $200.00 (Most any parts store for the kits) (Assuming the cylinders cannot be honed and/or the guts are bad)
c. NOS or NOSR Master cylinder (with new kit) $150.00 (Try eBay) (Assuming the bore cannot be honed and/or the guts are bad)
d. New lines, hoses and junction blocks $150.00 (Try eBay or CotF or FS)
e. Can of brake fluid and shoes $100.00 (most anywhere )
f. New hardware kit $100.00 (Any parts store) (Assuming the old parts cannot be used)
Enough stuff for a complete brake job? Lets see now that comes to $840.00. Still not $1K but close owing to my generous estimate of costs and assumptions.
BTW2: Oh! I know. I didn't figure anything in for shipping and handling. Also, the cost of having a friend pump the brakes for you. Shucks this will make your estimate about right. I can't stand it! Just ignore my estimate.
Yes all caps is SHOUTING. That's to get attention and emphasize the fact. If not aware of what a complete brake job is then refer to your shop manual. No need to repeat what is available from many reliable sources. An estimate can only be made after inspection and the cost will vary depending on items to be replaced and sources of supply . An estimate is made after inspection and a guesstimate is what is made before inspection. Unless of coarse you have xray vision.
I like Charlie's approach because it gives a full picture of the cost and work to get a reliable and safe brake system. I also agree that you can possibly adjust that downward if the inspection reveals that there are re-usable parts. You do not have to buy everything before you start the job.
My experience is more in line with Charlie's approach. On these older vehicles I find that there is very little in the brake system that I am comfortable re-using.
Charlie's approach will help Scott be prepared for what would be a worse case scenario.
I'm just over here minding my own business, waiting for parts. :) New lines were needed because I couldn't free up from the hoses and botched up the ends. Someone else had similar problems at some of the junctions. Annoying, but once I accepted it...the cost wasn't too bad. Parts came today. I can't get to it tonight, but should have everything knocked out by Sunday night.
My math (not to poke any bears) Hardware - $50 Cylinders and hoses - $210 Turn two drums - $30 Lines - $157 MC rebuild kit and thru bolts - $37 Shoes - $58
I got my car back on the road this past weekend, I just took it for a quick spin around the block. Last night I took it out for a longer drive and I notice the brakes pulse like the drums need to be turned. I had them done at a respected old-school shop. Before I go back and ask him to try again....is there anything I might be missing? Should I check my shoe adjustment first? For now...I need to get my flat fixed. I parked in a seldom used area of a parking lot last night and assume I picked up a nail. Good times. Maybe now is the time to bite on new tires :)
Chipper is correct about the need to "refinish"the drums by some hard braking after a long period of no use. If the drums were round before the car was parked they should be round now. I would also re-check shoe adjustment after you have driven 50 to 100 miles.
And nails do not discriminate between old and new tires!
Piece o'cake. Use the parking brake if needed. That's why we often call it the emergency brake. It is totally mechanical. Use engine and gears to help slow the car. If lack of brakes scare you then try driving a motor boat.
