VCCA Home Forums GENERAL DISCUSSION General Discussions Vehicle Title

Serious question:

When say on eBay a car is for sale. You look at the description about engine, miles, etc. and the the title description is listed as "clean"or "clear". (You with me here?) From such decaratiom by the lister conveying to the potential buyer regarding the title of the car?

Can it mean the car:

a. Has an open title with no one listed as having the title transferred to them.

b. Has an open title but the owner is a state registered car dealer (used or new)?

c. The title lists the last owner of the vehicle and the title has not been processed by the appropriate state DMV?

d. The title lists the owner and there are no liens or other encumbrance and the space on the title for transfer to another party or new owner is open so that the transaction may be processed by the DMV?

e. The owner has the title from some state or has merely a bill of sale to go with the car (notarized or not)?

f. The owner can merely give you the title, no matter the state, and issue you a piece of paper stating that the owner has no further interest in the car?

So given the above what do you think? I'm thinking "d" above.

Thanks and I will appreciate your insight.

Charlie

It SHOULD mean at least any of A through D. E and F don't cut it.

Really, in a best case scenario, it SHOULD actually mean that the Seller has (1) gone through the process of getting a current, correct Title in (2) the Seller's own name; in (3) the state where they reside and (4) where the car is physically located; and (5) the VIN has been verified to match the title and it "makes sense" (i.e., the numbers and letters of the VIN correspond to the correct make and year of car); and they are prepared to sign it and have it notarized to you the new buyer - meaning (6) nobody signed anything yet - because there hasn't been a sale yet. Then it's actually a bona fide Seller with title selling, to a bona fide buyer with money, if and when a transaction occurs. And if no transaction occurs, the "Seller" is simply the "Owner" and has title and can get license plates if they want to.

That is the way I sell a car, always. It is the way I prefer to buy a car.

Anything less is at least a little bit fuzzy and maybe beginning to be questionable. Many people who routinely buy and sell cars (less than a dealer but more than a casual hobbyist who might decide to sell a car after years of ownership) seldom seem to bother to get a title in their own name, ostensibly to avoid the cost. "Oh, I just bought it from Bob or Jim or whoever last month, and they signed the Title over but we didn't put my name on it and I can just hand it off to you...." Which I don't really like but is quite commonly done. Then they avoid any fees and in many states the Sales Tax from taking true legal title. The downside is they don't really truly "own" the car - Bob or Jim still does., technically. And you have no recourse of any kind against the person selling it to you, because they never officially owned it, since they never got a title.

And in the modern world of 2018 with everything/everywhere in computers and databases which all talk to each other, I simply will NOT buy a car without a title and a notarized bill of sale. Unless of course it is just for parts. Because it has become almost impossible in most states to get a Title once you have the car and you didn't get one with it. It is a huge problem any more.

Charlie,
Being that we’re both in N.C., I can tell you the meaning of azz ache has not been experienced by you, until you bring an out of state vehicle with a problem title into North Carolina.
A clear or clean title indicates there are no liens against the title.
That being said, you want the ORIGINAL title, not a copy and you certainly would not want a title stating it’s a SALVAGE title.
Most importantly, the serial number on the vehicle must be affixed to the vehicle correctly and the vehicle serial number MUST match the title exactly.

Bob.

Oh, I've been down that road. It is a stinkin mess. There is something screwy about this car's title. The owner said he bought it at auction in MO. He never registered it in CA. where he lives and where the car is. He said he merely took the papers the auction company gave him and did not try to register it with the CA DMV. His intent, I assume, was to sell the vehicle using the paperwork the auction company gave him and he said he would give me a statement to the buyer that he had no more interest in the vehicle.

There is background information from an auction company in PA that the vehicle had a "NC assigned VIN number" and a clear/clean PA title.

This is becoming a worrisome issue to me.

He said he would send me (through my son, a copy of the title he has for the vehicle. He doesn't know where the serial number is located on the vehicle. I told him where to find it. He said he'd look.

It sounds to me like this may be a salvage vehicle from NC. That is okay but I want to get a NC title for it in my name with no stinkin trouble. I know NC is probably has the most annal DMV of any state and so I must be cautious to not end up with fighting the NC DMV.

Thanks for your comment. My experience with NC DMV is right on with yours.

The car is not a parts car and there are BIG bucks involved.

Charlie

NOTE to DIZ: Sheeee. Mum's the word unless PM. I don't want to tip my hand here.

So, if I have a car bought without title, only a signed bill of sale (not notarized). Would it be impossible to register it in NC? I have registered it in NY without title.

Every state has their own method of handling a vehicle without a valid title. Some don't require a title I've heard. The wise person will contact their state's licensing authority BEFORE buying a vehicle without a title to see what they will need to get a title in their state or if a title is required.

I have just found out that the title is from PA. The serial number has the letters NCS followed by 97759. The PA title has a window for prior state title and in the space is NC.

I'm taking a copy ot the top half of the from page of the title to the NCDMV to see if I need more.

The downside of all this right now is that I believe that the "S" following the NCS stands for Salvage. If so, what is wrong with that if the car is in good shape all around?

Bob, et al: What is the no-no concerning a Salvage title? How does that, in itself, change the value of the car?

Thanks,

Charlie

BTW: Your opinions are of value to me and appreciated.

Hi Charlie,

If you don't mind I will share some thoughts about "Salvage" titles. This typically means that a one time in the life of a vehicle it was considered a total loss, probably by an insurance company. It could have been in a wreck that the repair cost was greater than the market value or another event like a flood.

Sometimes the owner will take the insurance settlement and get to keep the vehicle but with a salvage title. Other times someone will buy the vehicle from a a salvage yard and get it back on the road. The salvage title protects any insurance or warranty company that might be asked to insure the vehicle if it is repaired and put back on the road. And typically no one will make a loan for a car on a salvage title. There are just too many unknowns with respect to the condition of the car.

The whole scenario with salvage titles is interesting because the rules vary so much from state to state. I have heard of situations when a person would buy a car on a salvage title in one state and when it was re-titled in another state the title was issued as clean.

In this part of the world our rule of thumb is that any vehicle with a salvage title is worth about 1/2 the value of the same vehicle with a "clean" title.

My comments are more focused on newer vehicles (less than 30 years old). How a salvage title impacts the value of a well restored 50+ year old car is a whole different discussion.

Charlie, if you plan to keep the car forever, the salvage title may not be of concern to you.

For me Charlie, the salvage title OR the NC assigned serial number are red flags.

The salvage title or the NC assigned serial number tells the world the car was put together from bits and pieces.
That, in turn, affects your ability to resell the vehicle for a fair market price.
Fact is, if this car CURRENTLY has the salvage title or the NC issued numbers, the purchase price for you should be much less than fair market value.

In my case Charlie, the NC DMV issued me a new, clean NC title with no hassle.

But, the NC DMV had "TITLE ISSUANCE REMORE", after that title was issued to me.

They threatened to rescind the title they issued. They threatened to "red flag" future vehicle registration stickers.

For each objection the NC DMV proclaimed, I countered with CHEVROLET ISSUED DOCUMENTATION.

For me, it was a 13 month nightmare ........ I became a NC TITLE expert.

In the end, I legally kept my issued title and my next year vehicle registration form was sent to me.

No apologies though, from the NC DMV, for the 13 months of hell.

Don't want anything like this to happen to you, Charlie ........ tooo many clean cars out there with correct documentation.

I am not sure a state issued vehicle number necessarily means the vehicle was put together from parts or was a total/flood car. It is different than a salvage title. When they titled by engine number some states would issue a state number on a engine change. I have seen a recent example of this so some may still be doing it.

Dave

Seems to me that there are nearly as many options as there are people in the DMV. The whole objective in vehicle titles/registration is to collect the fees and try to reduce stolen vehicles. The salvage titles are meant to alert potential buyers of a major event in the vehicle's history. In most cases the folks at the DMV and law enforcement officers are easy to deal with as long as the current owner or title applicant is reasonable, appears legit and pays the fees. However if someone smells a rat or steps into a pile or does not get the proper respect "Katie bar the door". Once in that situation they will require each mark to be properly toed, Is dotted, Ts crossed and homage paid to the saint of donuts.

I went to the NCDMV today. The lady there said that the number issued by NC did not indicate a salvage title. The letters and numbers issued by NC were on the PA title. She said there would be no problem issuing me a NC title if the seller had the vehicle registered in his name in CA. That has not been done but he assures me that he is going to the CA DMv to apply for a CA title tomorrow morning.

Just to be sure, I'm going to the NC License and Theft Bureau in the morning and check with them. The lady at the DMV said that she thought it had been merely a problem with verifying the paperwork or a lost title situation. I'm doing all my due dilligence on this matter and trying to not get burned. After I have checked with the License and Theft Bureau I will also check with Hagerty and see if there are any broblems insuring the car.

Below is the vehicle in question:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1941-Chevrolet-Special-Deluxe-Convertible/273363486934?hash=item3fa5bbc8d6%3Ag%3AvkoAAOSw4GFbUDJh&_sacat=6000&_nkw=1941+chevrolet+cabriolet&LH_Complete=1&_from=R40&rt=nc

Any more comments will be helpful, no matter their slant, I making my decision. If I get the car then it will be with me the rest of my life then sold. Trying to avoid any renege hassal or bars for my remaining family in selling the car once I'm gone.

Being able to license it and drive it once and a while will be important. Accordingly, Bob's comment about the DMV getting masty on renewing the registration yearly is matter I want to be sure about.

More comments will be appreciated.

If the bureau says that that the title is salvage then that is sure nuff a deal breaker.

Best to all,

Charlie

Charlie, the N.C. license and theft bureau are the guys who physically inspect out of state cars, as they cross into N.C. They do the inspections, the folks in Raleigh are the bosses of the license and theft bureau.

I did not say a SALVAGE title was the same as the N.C. issued serial numbers.

Fact is, either the SALVAGE TITLE or the N.C. ISSUED SERIAL NUMBER carry their own forms of stigma, raising questions to potential buyers.

It sounds like you’re set on this specific car.

I can offer you one bit of advise ...... be certain as to what you’re about to do..... don’t let emotions rule your decision.

Bob,

Nope not at all set on anything. Just trying to understand the situation.

What are the ß” igmas:

A. For salvage?

b. For state issued serial number?

I'd like to know.

Thanks,

Charlie

Charlie,

Stigmas such as SALVAGE TITLE and NC ISSUED SERIAL NUMBERS = red flags.

Red flags because either one could indicate the car has been rebuilt, as in a wreck rebuild and not a restoration rebuild or lost its serial number tag, over its lifetime, for whatever reason..

As stated earlier, a salvage title would normally come into play on a newer car, where the car was totaled or flooded or burned, etc.

A NC ISSUED SERIAL NUMBER can be issued when there is no serial number to be found, or when the car is knowingly ( to the state inspectors ) put together , as in a kit car, without a serial number, as an example, or if a fraudulent serial number tag is known to be installed on the vehicle, as in a serial number tag taken from a junkyard car..

Fear of the unknown, by the prospective buyer, when either situation exists, cause value to drop.

I use Hagerty for my old cars, ask them as to their take on either one of the two situations.

In my case, with my 13 month deal with NC DMV, the folks in LICENSE AND THEFT in Raleigh, INSISTED my serial number tag was a fraud because it did not match the illustration found in the front pages of the 1949 to 1953 CHEVROLET SERVICE MANUAL, with 1954 supplement.

The serial number tag shown, in the illustration was an illustration held over from an earlier year, thus the difference in appearance between the illustration and my actual serial number tag caused the initial red flag for me..

That was just the beginning of my 13 month journey with NC DMV.

Next they insisted my serial number tag was mounted in the incorrect position ......... then then insisted the serial number tag should have been spot welded to the car, then the rivets were incorrect ........ the list goes on.

In your case Charlie, the gent who is selling the car is not the legal owner, if the paperwork is not currently in his name.

Added is the fact the gent "doesn't know where the serial number is located on the car "...... is he kidding ?

How did he determine the car was a valid purchase , and not a stolen vehicle, if no comparison was made between the title and the serial number on the car ?

Just my .02 cents Charlie, I would not walk away from this deal, I would run away !

Cover your steps in triplicate, and if you make the purchase and the NC DMV latches onto your butt, it will be a long and painful event....... whether you win or lose.

Been there, done that, sorry to say.

Whatever your decision, best of luck.

OK, Bob,

The owner bought the car from Auction in Branson, MO.

He did not register it with in CA where he resides.

NCDMV License Office lady looked up its history and told me it had been through the bonding process here in NC before issuance of title.

With the bond process done, I think that no one else can now successfully claim the vehicle.

The car had its NC title changed to a PA one with the NC issued used.

The car had a frame off restoration.

The car won first place in category at an AACA judging somewhere. I assume that was at the AACA Fall Meet in Hershey, PA. Of, course, that fact and the one about total, frame-off restoration has little to do with the issue here)

The car will have a CA title for issuance to me. Accordingly, all that can be done will be done.

I think this was a mere matter of the serial number plate missing or too obscure to read or make a rubbing and/or title lost.

According to the relative statements above, it seems to me that there is little to raise a red flag about.

Of course, it may depend on what the NCL&T Bureau tells me.

I'll post what they have to say after I go out this morning and speak with them.

The above facts would need to be explained to a potential buyer but, while annoying,should assuage any issues about a red flag, as long as its history is disclosed up front.

The car speaks for itself and presents well, as you can see.

I don't know yet what I'll do. I may yet pass on this one but I don't think I'll find another one where the color codes being followed in Kingston Grey and Blue interior. I don't think many were produced in those codes and, therefore rare.

What was the original issue with the one you spent 13 months trying to get straightened out with the NCDMV? No title, no readable serial number, tag missing, or what?

Thanks for the advice and please pass along any more thought you have about the feasibility of buying this car.

I appreciate your sound advice. Best,

Charlie

Not knowing how your DMV works and going on Bob's postings I would be RUNNING hard and fast. While it maybe a desirable car the ownership is sounding to be a big problem and I would hate to hear you have sunk good $$$ into another car and end up without it.
Save your $$$$ for a car you can be sure of ownership of. I know of another car buyer that got caught and he is still out of pocket big time.
Tony

I agree with Dave.I own a '69 Chevy with a Georgia assigned VIN. The car is in very good original condition, but for some reason in the past, the original VIN was removed so the state assigned their own number. I realize that for most collectors, that reassigned number is a red flag and hurts the value, but in mt case, I really don't care. The car is still the car and it speaks for itself. I enjoy owning it and if I ever decide to sell it, I know someone else will enjoy it too.
BTW, I had no trouble getting a title in my name here in NJ. The title just lists the GA serial number as the VIN.

Verne

This morning I went out and spoke with a NC Liscense and Theft Bureau officer. They are the ones who issue NCS numbers to a vehicle upon their satisfaction has been after process of NC law. He said that the PA titled car with the NC serial # is the same as any regular car on the road. He stressed that the car is Not a salvage car or anything like that by any other term.

He also said that rhe reasons it was issued a NC state serial could be owing to many reasons. From having to do with the older title, serial number readability, Serial number plate lost, etc. That has now been taken care of and the only difference is that the instant serial number has been issued by the NC rather than t he factory of build.

I understand this may still raise a red flag to some but I can't understand why other natural paranoia owing to past experience or old wives tales. Accordingly, there is that for whatever it is.

Best to all.

Charlie

For what it's worth. We have been considering a move to NC. This thread has concerned me, since my NY registered 29 Chevy has no title. I asked The NYDMV what I would need to do to get a bonded title. Here is their reply "New York State only titles vehicles 1973 and newer. This is a non titled vehicle. Your proof of ownership is a transferable registration." Yes my NY registration is "transferable". The NCDMV phone message concerning registering a vehicle from another state indicates that I need a title or a transferable registration. I have sent an e-mail to them to verify what is required.
Has anyone tried applying for Vermont registration and then using that to obtain NC registration?

HI Charlie,

As I noted in my post my experience with Salvage titles is related to "newer" cars. Restored and custom built cars are a whole different world

I think that things will work out great for you with respect to registering this car. The fact that you are being pro-active and talking to the DMV staff in advance will be a big help when you get the car.

By the way, that looks like a great car and will be a fun cruiser!

Charlie, not certain how to take your comments here.
Understand I provided you with the best first hand information I had, based on my 13 month experiences with the NC DMV.
No wives tales, no rumors, no paranoia, just facts.
It's my hope you understand my effort in trying to present my experiences with the NC DMV to you, on one of my out of state cars.

One year ago, I brought in another car, this one from Portland, Oregon..
This car was inspected by License and Theft, all went through rapidly, with no hiccups.

But ......... my '51 went through rapidly, as well.
All the problems with the '51 arose AFTER the NC Title was issued by the NC DMV in Raleigh.

I was told by Raleigh License and Theft that they have 12 months, AFTER inspection to counter anything previously done by NC DMV.
Yep, they took every bit of that 12 months with me ...... and then another month for good measure.

Bob,

Sorry, I didn't state my comments clearly. I guess the only point is that the car was issued the NC Serial number several years ago and it is as good as the factory serial number but for those who may have a hangup about it and want the original serial number or have nothing to do with the car. That, I think, does happen.

Still the car has to be worth something. And it is not a salvage car.

I think there may be some differences between your 51 and the 13 months of torment you went through and the 41 I am considering buying.

Best,

Charlie

Charlie, the point of discussing my NC DMV 13 month adventure is to tell you ( 1 ) there was / is not anything wrong with my Chevrolet issued serial number or its documentation and yet ( 2 ) the NC DMV was under the impression that the CHEVROLET ISSUED SERIAL NUMBER was not valid.

I fought tooth and nail to keep my factory issued serial number, which I did.

It was that important to me.

Moral to my adventure is ........ you don't have to be wrong to be hassled by the NC DMV.

NC dmv sounds like my state authority down here, part of the problems I have is the counter staff dont know what they are talking about and even when there is staff that do know the counter staff argue with and or ignore them.
Tony