VCCA Home Forums GENERAL DISCUSSION VCCA Judging Questions HPOCF question....

We're cool,,,,

I am 99% sure that the CV came from the best V-8 era pool, not HPOCF. He even says in the article that the car was a total repaint. To the best of my knowledge there was never an HPOCF car to win a BOTB, and in my opinion it would not say much for the restored cars in the mix if it did. I think you have a great idea about opening it up for different era's. Keep in mind though once you get past 1955 or so the number of unrestored cars are few and far between.

That is exactly why they should be encouraged to participate in Meets and receive special recognition when they do. Examples of "original" are invaluable to preservers and restorers. Make enough of a fuss about them and they will come out of the woodwork. I've seen enough tri-5 Chevys but not of pre-war preserved cars and trucks.

I think there is a lesson to be learned from AACA in the HPOCF area. To be in HPOF of AACA the vehicle must be THIRTY FIVE years old or older.

According to the 2015 AACA judging guidelines, HPOF is for vehicles 25 years old or older. I do not know when it changed from 35 years.

Good discussion, some good points made.

I'm not very concerned about the 1914 "doing well" or not at the Central Meet - I just want to show it to folks, so I'm not lobbying for anything about that subject here, or I wouldn't post in this string. In fact, I'm still not sure I'll even succeed in having it running in time, although I'm steadily working on that. I will bring it regardless, so people can see it, but it might end up just being "Display Only."

I wanted to say I have been at several Meets through the years where there are unrestored cars from the 1940's and even some 30's - all of which are fun to see. But yes, naturally, many of them are the newer cars.

I also wanted to mention this: at several Meets where I have been involved in helping to run the judging process - even though it's not an "official policy" - the thought has been expressed more than once that "all other things being equal, more weight will be given to the earlier car in HPOCF." In other words, if there is a 1940 and a 1975 car both being looked at for HPOCF best of show, and they both certify in all 4 areas and are in reasonably comparable condition, then the car that has survived for several decades longer gets the nod. Which seems reasonable to me.

Also - the Best of the Best program does NOT consider the HPOCF annual winner when selecting the overall Best of the Best winner. That decision was made a few years ago, because it's just not apples-to-apples.

And finally, I wanted to say that it seems reasonable to me to pick a "Best of Show" at our Meets for the most well preserved HPOCF car. Yes, it is certified, not judged, and that is a different process. But why not honor those cars, too. And as John said, simultaneously generate a possible story for the G&D about it.

To make it fair you could divide the HPOCF class by years such as into 10 or 20 year segments.
Not that we don't have too many classes already.

It will also get interesting if some of those cars from the Nebraska Auction begin showing up at meets in unrestored condition. Some of them were in fairly rough shape, but original right down to all of the rubber and the oil in the engine!! How would you compare that orange to one of the apples that has won in the past?!

I would have to see one in person, but there is a difference in a car that is just good used car that was kept out of the elements and one that sat in a bean field for over 50 years. Just because the part is original does not mean it does not need to be restored. Most of those cars did not run so there would be some restoration work just to get them on the field under their own power

I still do not understand the the money those cars brought

A few of the cars that were kept indoors at the dealership turned out nice. The ones in the field, like you said, crazy!

Gene, I like your idea. There should be a division between old era and new era HPOCF. Let's look into that.

It has long bothered me that a 1920's / 1940's HPOCF verses a 1980 HPOCF should end up somehow be in the same boat. This will take some creative thinking as to how to make this work fairly for all in HPOCF AND I believe that it should be ironed out before we publish our next revision to the Judging Manual.

dtm

An easy fix would be going back to just certifing the car and not give any "awards" other than noting the car has been certified (in certain areas).

I agree with Gene on this one. There could be an HPOCF Oval for any vehicle that Certifies but no First, Second, Third award and all are in one class. The HPOCF Class.

If a person wants their vehicle point judge they should enter it in class judging.

That is how it all began. My '50 was the first car to be certified in this area in 2003 and I was happy with that.

Seems that the VCCA in its "wisdom" has ignored the major reason that people bring vehicles to a Meet: to display it and possibly learn a bit more about it and its authenticity. The pitifully few that are trophy hounds have poisoned the water. Anyone still wondering why Meets are losing numbers?

Just wonder how many more would attend the Central Meet if they knew the '14 was going to be there?

Seems to me everyone is avoiding the fact this is done was to generate content and photos for the G&D. as well to expose owners of these cars there is recognition

Attendance at Meets is due to a lot of issues, which is another subject in itself

Not all Best Of Show HPOCF have been "newer cars". I won Best Of Show with my 1937 in 2012 at the Central Meet. I just never sent in the stuff for the Best of The Best due to moving out to California for a job I took out there. Its not all about Shinny its about What kind of Condition is the car in. Lets say I bring my 16 Baby Grand to a meet and put it in HPOCF since it has not been restored I would not want a best of show because it is not a perfect example for the class it is a car in need of restoration. What I am trying to get at is There is that line that when certifying and picking best of show I think most captains and chief judges ask themself as is this car the best example of original or is it at the point of needing restored and most "older" cars are at that point. There are a few needles in the hay stack like my 37, but there are very few of them out there.

It would be more fair just to have NO best of show for the HPOFC class. Thats how it was originally.

Right on Gene. Not all change is for the good.

I think the HPOCF CLass should go back to its original intent. TO display original cars as a reference for those wanting to restore a car accurately. Certification in each of the areas demonstrates the authenticity. Each participating vehicle in this class should have a notebook with the certification sheets and any documentation of the vehicle. Giving 1,2,3 Best of Show HPOCF only creates an opportunity for someone to bring a old restoration and represent it as original. Because they want an award. We all know how loosely the term original is used these days. HOw many times have you seen Original Car- new paint and upholstery advertised. Let's display the HPOCF cars in a prominate place at a meet and honor those cars.

Our society has evolved into an "everyone gets an award" time period. Has the HPOCF Class entered this realm. Let's get HPOCF back to it's intended purpose, certify for future generations of restorers.

And Yes John I understand the Best of the Best was created for the G&D Editors. I just do not understand how the best of the best can be selected with no judges seeing ALL of the cars in person that participate in VCCA Meets. Pictures do and have fooled people.

Yes there are flaws with everything, and you raise some very valid points, that I do agree with. This is done under the premise that the certification team, and Chief Judge are responsible with the standards of the awards, and the photos are only to back up their finds. I had witnessed first hand some real abuse power of the position in the past few years, at three meets in two different VCCA Area's. Then you have the confrontational owner(s) which is a whole other story. When you can see from 20 feet away on a car that the nose clip is a different shade and you ask if any collision work was done, The owner/member swears at the person asking the question, starts his car and floors the gas and races off the show field, risking injury. Just imagine if it were something really important how they would act.

If a member with an older car does not submit the photos, then who's fault is that? Not the system.

I agree the system needs a tune-up but after several years neglect what can one expect?

Some related experience from my past: For many years I was involved in judging at the LGCA national conventions. When they first started a class for unrestored vehicles, they awarded a 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place trophy (or plaque). Over the years I recall seeing the same car(s) attend and noted that they were "better" than a previous year. A lot of devious restoration work was done to some of them, all in that quest for a $10. trophy. The "cost" of that trophy was actually removing that car from a dwindling number of cars in existence that could be used for reference for documentation of assembly practices or guidelines for future correct restorations.
I campaigned heavily for those cars to be omitted from judging and instead be given certificates of originality based on the areas of the cars that met that criteria. Declaration sheets were created that the owners would fill out, noting the items that were not original. The Pre-certification team (of which I was usually a member) would also go over the cars prior to classification and admission to the Un-Restored class and note any other items that were not original. The cars were not eligible for any other awards. The result was that people no longer destroyed original features of the cars due to "competition" for that very valuable $10. trophy. It also encouraged more people to bring out original cars because there was no longer a pecking order between one car and another. It either earned a certificate or it did not.

Verne

The VCCA Judging process has been flawed for its entire existence. They have allowed known modifications or part substitutions if a new part was not readily available. Also allowed reproductions that obviously differed from originals. That all was to "encourage" members to restore and bring vehicles to meets. It has never been to honor and award those that "did it right" even if it cost more money, time or effort. Numerous times changes have been made in an attempt to appease a few hotheads and habitual complainers. The result is that most people don't know or recognize the original or original looking parts. So the top awarded vehicles often have obviously incorrect parts and are copied by others who get irate when those parts are identified as reproductions on their vehicles. It has created a monster! My attempts to get judging back toward the way the vehicles were produced or recognize and utilize the "preserved" Chevrolets have gotten me kicked off the Judging Committee.

QUOTE:
The VCCA Judging process has been flawed for its entire existence. They have allowed known modifications or part substitutions if a new part was not readily available. Also allowed reproductions that obviously differed from originals. That all was to "encourage" members to restore and bring vehicles to meets. It has never been to honor and award those that "did it right" even if it cost more money, time or effort.

I would imagine that any judging process including the VCCA system is "flawed" to some degree. I believe hgowever that the Best of the Best Program works really hard to verify that the vehicles selected do represent accurate examples or restoration and originality.


dtm

Someone related to me the other day that VCCA Judging has turned into something like Little League Ball. Everyone gets a trophy.