When judging the HPOCF classes at shows, are the Best of Show from that class always given to the car that is the most factory fresh, or are there other criteria? It seems in the shows I have followed, it has gone to a 1960's-1970's era car. Most of them have never been driven since new, so come by their preservation that way. Will we ever see one of the older cars win a best of in this class? Could a VCCA judge recognize an H-4 for it's age and character, instead of the factory shine? To me, it is every bit amazing that a 100 year old car can be pulled out of a barn and run as it is a 30 year old car can be kept nice.

This isn't meant to bash the newer cars that have been preserved... I realize the amount of effort and work it takes to keep a new car new.

Perfect example from the Middle West Meet I just got back from. A 1984 was tops in the HPOCF CLASS class and a very good example of an unrestored 1932 did not. Now the 1932 may not have been original in all four areas but these late model new cars are in a completely different class than cars says 65 years old. ....Not fair.

I would think that a car would have to be original in all four areas... just not shiny and new looking. A little wear & tear couldn't hurt...

VCCA HPOCF in my opinion is off base. Let me explain.

First I feel the object is to encourage VCCA members to maintain and display their old Chevrolets so others can better understand how they were originally built. Some deterioration is expected and should be accepted. Like has been said and written thousands of times, they are only original once. Modifications detract from the originality. Yes I understand that tires, hoses, drive belts, ignition parts all must be changed to keep these cars running and driving.

I dislike (actually that is too mild a term) the fact that some feel that there should be a competition among the HPOCF vehicles. Yes, I wrote competition because that is exactly what the process in selecting the BEST HPOCF. That is in NO way consistent with the purpose of HPOCF.

Third I feel that each HPOCF certified vehicle by the second meet should have a document that can be placed on the front seat and delineate the areas that are in compliance with the evaluation criteria. That way others with similar vehicles can use the displayed vehicle and document to better understand what they might do to restore or preserve their cars.

Unfortunately others don't share the same opinions particularly those in power on the Judging Committee. It is a shame that the major benefits that the well preserved vehicles have are not relished and promoted. They represent the pinnacle of what the VCCA stands for and should be so honored.

Chip,

I agree with what you have to say with HPOCF. Please keep in mind when the "Best of Program" was put into place it was also in response to then G&D editor's request for articles which she expressed at time there was a shortage of. The intention of including HPOCF into the BOTB program was to get articles and photos submitted for publication in the G&D. As we know the owners of these cars would never take the time to submit anything. The intent was that program could generate anywhere from 15 to 24 feature articles to be used throughout the year. That idea had gone by the wayside. The owner of the 58 that was featured this year resides about 6 miles from me. I have only seen the car maybe 3 or 4 times in the past 30+ years that he owned it. Trust me he would never had submitted an article on the car if it were not for this "competition" That car was really preserved in a time capsule and really did not fall to the attrition many loaded four doors fell to as parts cars in the 80's
The Best of HPOCF is competitive but only to determine which vehicle is the best example of an HPOCF vehicle of the pool submitted.
My issue's with the program differ from yours, my main problem is that I have seen WAY TOO MANY CARS that are just old restorations get the award. It has become a venue for some owners to tell lies about their vehicle.
When the program first got off the ground I traveled to the Central Meet and had a long term member curse me out jump in his car and do a neutral drop when I asked if there was any paint work done to his car. There was and it was rather poor quality enamel at that, on a car that should have been lacquer.

Brewster in a perfect world all four areas would be nice and you are correct there should be some wear and tear, but on the downside there are just not many of those vehicles out there

I agree with all the above. The HPOCF sould be back to what it was originally. First off just certify the four chosen areas, post on the cars what they are...period.

The situation that I'm picturing in my head is going to happen at this year's Central Meet when Don Williams unloads his 1914 H-4 Touring. I think that car is an amazing well preserved 102 year old example of Chevrolet history and I think our club should be doing something to reward a time capsule like it. I think that car is every bit worth of an HPOCF best of show award as an '84 Cavalier that's been parked since new. I just think that it is one class that should be judged with an eye to other aspects then just spit and shine on the parts...so long as the parts are correct.

Brewster, Seems like you are spending way too much energy over results of an event that has not even happened yet, with a car you don't even own.
If the Chief Judge or the certification team knows or cares what they are doing then there will be no issue

Brewster,
Maybe you should volunteer for the Judging Committee. There are a few others on Chat that might as well. Once familiar with the Judging process then new ideas or modifications can spark positive change.

My two cents worth on HPOCF is there should be no BEST IN CLASS. They should be certified as Original Unrestored Vehicles or no Certification. If I remember correctly that is how it started.

^ Jim this is true but the the BOTB program came after HPOCF. The system did need some tuning, as it was an evolving process. However the powers to be decided to that things were going in a new direction or content where it was, because nothing has been done after the committee was realigned.

I agree with back Roads that it should be a certification process. Making it a certification Best In Class "contest" defeats the purpose of the class in my opinion.

I would rather see an HPOCF on the display field with documentation on what is original, deteriorated original or replaced than an article in the G&D. The article in the G&D can then be "if you want to see examples of the way they were built come to a meet". Or "bring your Chevy to a meet so others and enjoy and benefit from it."

I have written a bunch of technical articles that were published in the G&D. I have almost never received any feedback on them even when I had an error in the text. I have also had people write to me as a TA with in a few months requesting information that was contained in an article. There has been virtually no interest in an index of G&D technical articles. That all sums up to convince me that technical articles are only of interest to a few members. Same for attending meets, tours or other activities. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try to improve the VCCA and promote its benefits. HPOCF changes can be one of those efforts.

I believe we keep making changes in the judging to give more participants an award.

I'm not wasting any energy over this, John. I think it's just a discussion about stuff that we do on the judging field that may or may not be in the rule book. It's possible that no chief judge has thought of picking a car that wasn't one of the newer cars on the field. The class judging is laid out very clearly in the book... take points off for incorrect parts, and blemishes. As far as I know, the drivers class and the HPOCF classes were just judged as a pass/fail on four areas of the car. My question was meant to generate some thought as to what constitutes a "Best of Show" in those classes if the points are not shown. Does it say in the rule book that the best of this class has to be a high point car, or can a chief judge look at some of the other intangibles. For an owner of a car like Don's 1914, maybe the decision to even display the car as an HPOCF will be made on their ability to compete in the class. Maybe there is a judge at a future meet that is reading this and giving it some thought. We have our 55th anniversary meet coming up next year, and it would be a prime show to showcase more early cars in the HPOCF class. Another idea would be to split the class into age groups, like Pre-1935, 1935-1957, and 1958 and up.

For the record, I agree with Jim that the class should be pass/fail with no best of show awards... but the decision has been made to include them in the "Best of the Best" awards. I'm just questioning the process that gets us to that award...

Brewster, I never said you were "wasting time", I said you were spending to much energy, on potential results of an event that had not happened yet. It would appear that you are lobbying for a specific result once you start using names and specific cars

Again, it was intended for G&D content, and stimulate attendance by owners of such cars, and nothing more that is a point you don't seem to want to acknowledge.
I agree with many of the things you are saying, and you have some great suggestions that I hope get considered, I know I surely would have. The age of the vehicle must play a role with everything. When I was Chair I had made sure there was communication before ever meet, and there was always at least one member from the committee present to consult with. We made sure that was part of the selection. That process seems to be long gone now. I was a Chief Judge last year any communication was initiated by myself.

If the certification were done with some concern and qualified people the submissions would make sense. The car has to certify in 4 out of 4 to be considered. I removed one of my cars from a certification because I filled out the form stating the engine could not certify, the captain told me "no one is looking why are you telling me this, don't worry" They gave me a certification in all four areas, I did not feel good about the award and I asked to retire it, which I did.

Maybe "Best of Show" HPOCF should be changed to "Most Unique" HPOCF.

The HPOCF cars are "certified" as being correct ORIGINAL in the respective areas and not even supposed to be judged....

Admittedly, I used Don's car as an example, but in no way am I lobbying for it to be given an award at this show. My hope would be that there are many cars in the same significant era, condition and state of preservation that would make the judges decision really, really difficult! The easy way out would be to "class judge" the category, and reward the 1970's/80's cars that have been collectors show cars from the day they left the factory. My intent was to generate discussion, and the example I used was merely because we are all familiar with it from reading about it on this forum.

Thanks Gene. That is what I thought it was supposed to be. I had our 65, 70,74 in HOPCF and they were certifird, received an HPOCF Ovaql but there was no first, second, third, or Best of Class Awards.

I do understand this point, and I think the way it has been judged so far has gone a long way to help both the G&D and the ever expanding ranks of "new cars" on our judging fields. I think it is also a great idea to get younger people involved in our hobby, as they tend to collect the cars they drove in their youth. I'm not trying to diminish the value in that at all... just trying to add value to a group of people that try to preserve the really old cars that are at a disadvantage in this class because their cars were used before they were considered worthy of the show field.

That is correct Gene... but they do pick a best of show from the group and recognize them at the banquets. Those cars are then in contention for the Best of the Best awards in the G&D.

If you check your G&D Flint 2011 edition, you will see the award went to a 1976 Cosworth Vega.

I agree with you but keep in mind many of these older cars were just prime candidates to restore 15 years ago, appreciating unrestored vehicles is a newer trend in the hobby and very few cars older then 1969 were saved from restoration. Even the 58 that was featured the owner mentioned painting the valve covers 25 years ago. That car was not a car that would have been saved!

So why is that a problem? Owning one myself I know they are very rare cars

It's not a problem, I was just giving an example that I knew was published where the HPOCF class was awarded a best of award...

We're cool,,,,

I am 99% sure that the CV came from the best V-8 era pool, not HPOCF. He even says in the article that the car was a total repaint. To the best of my knowledge there was never an HPOCF car to win a BOTB, and in my opinion it would not say much for the restored cars in the mix if it did. I think you have a great idea about opening it up for different era's. Keep in mind though once you get past 1955 or so the number of unrestored cars are few and far between.

That is exactly why they should be encouraged to participate in Meets and receive special recognition when they do. Examples of "original" are invaluable to preservers and restorers. Make enough of a fuss about them and they will come out of the woodwork. I've seen enough tri-5 Chevys but not of pre-war preserved cars and trucks.

I think there is a lesson to be learned from AACA in the HPOCF area. To be in HPOF of AACA the vehicle must be THIRTY FIVE years old or older.

According to the 2015 AACA judging guidelines, HPOF is for vehicles 25 years old or older. I do not know when it changed from 35 years.

Good discussion, some good points made.

I'm not very concerned about the 1914 "doing well" or not at the Central Meet - I just want to show it to folks, so I'm not lobbying for anything about that subject here, or I wouldn't post in this string. In fact, I'm still not sure I'll even succeed in having it running in time, although I'm steadily working on that. I will bring it regardless, so people can see it, but it might end up just being "Display Only."

I wanted to say I have been at several Meets through the years where there are unrestored cars from the 1940's and even some 30's - all of which are fun to see. But yes, naturally, many of them are the newer cars.

I also wanted to mention this: at several Meets where I have been involved in helping to run the judging process - even though it's not an "official policy" - the thought has been expressed more than once that "all other things being equal, more weight will be given to the earlier car in HPOCF." In other words, if there is a 1940 and a 1975 car both being looked at for HPOCF best of show, and they both certify in all 4 areas and are in reasonably comparable condition, then the car that has survived for several decades longer gets the nod. Which seems reasonable to me.

Also - the Best of the Best program does NOT consider the HPOCF annual winner when selecting the overall Best of the Best winner. That decision was made a few years ago, because it's just not apples-to-apples.

And finally, I wanted to say that it seems reasonable to me to pick a "Best of Show" at our Meets for the most well preserved HPOCF car. Yes, it is certified, not judged, and that is a different process. But why not honor those cars, too. And as John said, simultaneously generate a possible story for the G&D about it.

To make it fair you could divide the HPOCF class by years such as into 10 or 20 year segments.
Not that we don't have too many classes already.

It will also get interesting if some of those cars from the Nebraska Auction begin showing up at meets in unrestored condition. Some of them were in fairly rough shape, but original right down to all of the rubber and the oil in the engine!! How would you compare that orange to one of the apples that has won in the past?!

I would have to see one in person, but there is a difference in a car that is just good used car that was kept out of the elements and one that sat in a bean field for over 50 years. Just because the part is original does not mean it does not need to be restored. Most of those cars did not run so there would be some restoration work just to get them on the field under their own power

I still do not understand the the money those cars brought

A few of the cars that were kept indoors at the dealership turned out nice. The ones in the field, like you said, crazy!

Gene, I like your idea. There should be a division between old era and new era HPOCF. Let's look into that.

It has long bothered me that a 1920's / 1940's HPOCF verses a 1980 HPOCF should end up somehow be in the same boat. This will take some creative thinking as to how to make this work fairly for all in HPOCF AND I believe that it should be ironed out before we publish our next revision to the Judging Manual.

dtm

An easy fix would be going back to just certifing the car and not give any "awards" other than noting the car has been certified (in certain areas).

I agree with Gene on this one. There could be an HPOCF Oval for any vehicle that Certifies but no First, Second, Third award and all are in one class. The HPOCF Class.

If a person wants their vehicle point judge they should enter it in class judging.

That is how it all began. My '50 was the first car to be certified in this area in 2003 and I was happy with that.

Seems that the VCCA in its "wisdom" has ignored the major reason that people bring vehicles to a Meet: to display it and possibly learn a bit more about it and its authenticity. The pitifully few that are trophy hounds have poisoned the water. Anyone still wondering why Meets are losing numbers?

Just wonder how many more would attend the Central Meet if they knew the '14 was going to be there?

Seems to me everyone is avoiding the fact this is done was to generate content and photos for the G&D. as well to expose owners of these cars there is recognition

Attendance at Meets is due to a lot of issues, which is another subject in itself

Not all Best Of Show HPOCF have been "newer cars". I won Best Of Show with my 1937 in 2012 at the Central Meet. I just never sent in the stuff for the Best of The Best due to moving out to California for a job I took out there. Its not all about Shinny its about What kind of Condition is the car in. Lets say I bring my 16 Baby Grand to a meet and put it in HPOCF since it has not been restored I would not want a best of show because it is not a perfect example for the class it is a car in need of restoration. What I am trying to get at is There is that line that when certifying and picking best of show I think most captains and chief judges ask themself as is this car the best example of original or is it at the point of needing restored and most "older" cars are at that point. There are a few needles in the hay stack like my 37, but there are very few of them out there.

It would be more fair just to have NO best of show for the HPOFC class. Thats how it was originally.

Right on Gene. Not all change is for the good.

I think the HPOCF CLass should go back to its original intent. TO display original cars as a reference for those wanting to restore a car accurately. Certification in each of the areas demonstrates the authenticity. Each participating vehicle in this class should have a notebook with the certification sheets and any documentation of the vehicle. Giving 1,2,3 Best of Show HPOCF only creates an opportunity for someone to bring a old restoration and represent it as original. Because they want an award. We all know how loosely the term original is used these days. HOw many times have you seen Original Car- new paint and upholstery advertised. Let's display the HPOCF cars in a prominate place at a meet and honor those cars.

Our society has evolved into an "everyone gets an award" time period. Has the HPOCF Class entered this realm. Let's get HPOCF back to it's intended purpose, certify for future generations of restorers.

And Yes John I understand the Best of the Best was created for the G&D Editors. I just do not understand how the best of the best can be selected with no judges seeing ALL of the cars in person that participate in VCCA Meets. Pictures do and have fooled people.

Yes there are flaws with everything, and you raise some very valid points, that I do agree with. This is done under the premise that the certification team, and Chief Judge are responsible with the standards of the awards, and the photos are only to back up their finds. I had witnessed first hand some real abuse power of the position in the past few years, at three meets in two different VCCA Area's. Then you have the confrontational owner(s) which is a whole other story. When you can see from 20 feet away on a car that the nose clip is a different shade and you ask if any collision work was done, The owner/member swears at the person asking the question, starts his car and floors the gas and races off the show field, risking injury. Just imagine if it were something really important how they would act.

If a member with an older car does not submit the photos, then who's fault is that? Not the system.

I agree the system needs a tune-up but after several years neglect what can one expect?

Some related experience from my past: For many years I was involved in judging at the LGCA national conventions. When they first started a class for unrestored vehicles, they awarded a 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place trophy (or plaque). Over the years I recall seeing the same car(s) attend and noted that they were "better" than a previous year. A lot of devious restoration work was done to some of them, all in that quest for a $10. trophy. The "cost" of that trophy was actually removing that car from a dwindling number of cars in existence that could be used for reference for documentation of assembly practices or guidelines for future correct restorations.
I campaigned heavily for those cars to be omitted from judging and instead be given certificates of originality based on the areas of the cars that met that criteria. Declaration sheets were created that the owners would fill out, noting the items that were not original. The Pre-certification team (of which I was usually a member) would also go over the cars prior to classification and admission to the Un-Restored class and note any other items that were not original. The cars were not eligible for any other awards. The result was that people no longer destroyed original features of the cars due to "competition" for that very valuable $10. trophy. It also encouraged more people to bring out original cars because there was no longer a pecking order between one car and another. It either earned a certificate or it did not.

Verne

The VCCA Judging process has been flawed for its entire existence. They have allowed known modifications or part substitutions if a new part was not readily available. Also allowed reproductions that obviously differed from originals. That all was to "encourage" members to restore and bring vehicles to meets. It has never been to honor and award those that "did it right" even if it cost more money, time or effort. Numerous times changes have been made in an attempt to appease a few hotheads and habitual complainers. The result is that most people don't know or recognize the original or original looking parts. So the top awarded vehicles often have obviously incorrect parts and are copied by others who get irate when those parts are identified as reproductions on their vehicles. It has created a monster! My attempts to get judging back toward the way the vehicles were produced or recognize and utilize the "preserved" Chevrolets have gotten me kicked off the Judging Committee.

QUOTE:
The VCCA Judging process has been flawed for its entire existence. They have allowed known modifications or part substitutions if a new part was not readily available. Also allowed reproductions that obviously differed from originals. That all was to "encourage" members to restore and bring vehicles to meets. It has never been to honor and award those that "did it right" even if it cost more money, time or effort.

I would imagine that any judging process including the VCCA system is "flawed" to some degree. I believe hgowever that the Best of the Best Program works really hard to verify that the vehicles selected do represent accurate examples or restoration and originality.


dtm

Someone related to me the other day that VCCA Judging has turned into something like Little League Ball. Everyone gets a trophy.

if an irate NCRS member gets pissed off and removes his corvette from the judging field prior to the end of judging, his membership is terminated. mike

Everyone gets a trophy????????

Almost True. A lot of people in the VCCA get awarded a trophy. But then again, a lot of people in the VCCA bring the same vehicle year after year. Often times a member owns several vehicles, and they bring their best vehicle. They then obviously win a trophy and I say AMEN. They should win a trophy.
Are all of the vehicles entered on the show field perfect? No. But everytime that I judge, the vehicles in my classes are looked at and I believe fairly by my team.

dtm