VCCA Home Forums TECHNICAL - 1945 AND EARLIER 1912-1928 Oldest Chevrolet Touring Car found?

That's cool! Glad that the numbers match making the old girl all original. Remember....the car will only be "original" once!

For me, I think the Holy Grail would be a Classic Type C, or more specifically, either the prototype, or the first factory car that Louis has been pictured with. I always wonder if there's a chance that one of them is buried in the garage or basement of one of those $1000 Detroit dream houses that are being bulldozed with regularity today! I do concede though… if a type C never shows up, then you do have the Holy Grail in the mean time!

No body ask, however that car should not be unloaded from the trailer and haul it directly to the museum. The same instructions for Pinkie's car. Unfortunately, Pinkies car has already been restored, but they should be parked together.

Brewster, I agree - finding a 3rd Classic Six Model C would indeed be the ultimate Holy Grail! That has always been Pinky's dream, and he thought that might be happening several years ago when he found his 1914 Light Six - that he might have scored, but of course it was not. All he knew was that he was going to see "a real early 6 Cylinder Chevy touring." Imagine his excitement! And he frequently talks about that it seems like there should be more that survived - they built 400 of them. But it's been 100 years, too. But someday one might surface - after all, this car of mine was hidden away for more than 90 years! So I agree, a Model C would be the ultimate.

Great find. Have fun with it My question is where is the 727 stamp on car I found an early 490 and have been looking for a stamped number on frame or motor mounts. Only number if find is h2565 on flywheel. Any way great find. From the frozen north. Roger Lynne.

Wow, that is an extremely low number 490! That would put it in the first few months of production, in the Fall of 1915.

The only place you will find a number on an early 490 like that is on the flywheel, there is nothing on the engine itself, nor on the frame or motor mount areas, nothing. And yes, it would start with a "H." Supposedly, they also stenciled that number on the lower left (driver) side of the engine, but it didn't last very long naturally. Sometimes, if you remove the cast iron exhaust "manifold" from the Head (just two bolts), you will see the same number stamped under there, where it was covered and hidden by the manifold. So your car would be a 3-door, have a truly vertical windshield, and no water pump, etc. If it still has the original wheels, it would be non-demountable rims. All the above items are specific to the 1916 model and carried into early 1917 production. The 490 was introduced in the summer of 1915 as a 1916 model (so just like my car here, yours was actually built late in the prior year but would have been properly called a 1916 model. My Baby Grand was built in the fall of '13 and sold as a '14). Yours would be one of the lowest Serial Number 490's known, I believe. I have also heard about a 3 digit Serial Number 490 on Long Island, but have never seen a photo - which of course would be earlier yet.

Other things to look for would be a Casting Date, in the form 9-22-15 for Sept 22, 1915 as an example. Normally right top center of the Head (which will also say "407" which is the Part Number), or occasionally the Cast Date will be at the upper corner of either side of the Head, near the top. Also the Block could have a Casting Date which again would be very near the exhaust manifold area. But it is not uncommon in the Teens for there to be no casting date present. Lastly, if the car still has the original wood framing, look under the front passenger (right) side door, right where the door covers when it is closed (door sill area). Sometimes, there will be a Body Number burned into the wood there. But foot traffic wore that away too. It would be a different number than the engine number. You have a very early 490, neat car!

Well after your comments I will quit looking for other numbers ,I ve crawled under this thing for hrs brushing and scraping easily as not to hurt anything to no availe. Would like to replace radiator but have decided if I keep it this way as a original driver or restore it. The motor number under manifold is V51. ??? Under that on block it is all brass showing another ???? Maybe frozen and broke and repaired with brass don't know. o well here's an old ford dog learning a lot about early chevrolet . And having a ball doing it. Thanks again. Will try to post some pics in future. Roger Lynne. In frozen north

Hey Don!

Very cool looking Baby Grand! Why do all of you guys get the really cool finds out east?

So question, what is the lowest serial number "H" model known? Counting all (Royal Mails & Baby Grands)? And if so who has it? Next question, I know that Ray Moot has been keeping tract of all the "H" models and trying to find some which had been around years ago and had disappeared over the years. Did he have any knowledge about this car?

Congrats Don ! Noticed the hubcap has a depressed script Chevrolet. What year used the raised script Chevrolet ? From the pics the tires appear to be white / light gray . Tell us more about the tires please.

Great find for a Chevrolet historian ! Best of luck with what ever you decide to do with the piece of history.

Hi, Bruce and Ken -

Great questions!

The oldest known Model H would technically be "Old Number One" still owned by General Motors and at the Heritage Center. It began life in late 1912 as a "Little Six Touring" - then was pulled off the line and fitted with allegedly the first production Mason 4 cylinder engine, and re-badged as a Chevrolet, and became the prototype for the Baby Grand, although there are many differences between it and the production version (see the article in the March 2014 G&D). That's why I qualified this car as the oldest "production" touring car - versus being a prototype. (Note - rumor has it that GM "re-stamped" that motor with Serial Number "1" sometime after the fact, in the 1920s…) But clearly, the body was originally built as a Little, not a Chevrolet. Anyway, the oldest known Model H's - older than this Baby Grand I just bought - are #64 owned by a fellow in TN, # 179 owned by Tom Meleo, #567 in OK, and #676 in Australia. All of these four are Royal Mail roadsters, not touring cars. There is also an unconfirmed report of #96 Royal Mail, but it might be a fairy tale, too. All of the above would have been built in the late Summer - early Fall of 1913. Next comes my car, the oldest Baby Grand we currently know of. And we have speculated that production may very well have started with just the roadsters, since that is what they were building immediately prior with the Littles, and the touring car production started a tad later in the Fall. Which might help explain why we don't have any lower numbered Baby Grands, just Royal Mails. Because then the next 6 oldest Model H's after mine are 4 Baby Grands and 2 Royal Mails - and that brings us up to beginning of January 1914 production. And all the above information is thanks to the Model H Registry maintained for years with incredible effort and accuracy by Ray Moot; and the production date information thanks to the same kind of effort and research by Ken Kauffman. And no, this car was totally unknown to the Model H Registry - it was hidden away for 90 years.

Tires: The tires are ancient, and fossilized, what's left of them. Totally flattened down, and you can't see any sidewall information. We have to assume they are approximately 90 years old. The right front does appear to be a white "smoothie" - but that would have been an old style tire even by the time this car was built. It could also simply be that the tread portions have fallen off, and the remaining core is bleached out with age. What I remember from quickly looking at the other tires, there are parts that have some tread, and parts that are "bare." The car is still in the trailer in deep freeze (below zero again tonight) and I haven't spent much time with it! (Say, Ken, you should buy my '46 Aerosedan for spare parts for your car. Then I'd have some room, and you'd have something to do for the next 5 years!) Once I can get the car into the Shop and look it over real good, I'll report back. Might be a little while, though.

I need to check with Ray Moot, the Model H guy, but if I remember correctly, the depressed script was 1914, and the raised script was 1915-16.

Quote: The only place you will find a number on an early 490 like that is on the flywheel, there is nothing on the engine itself, nor on the frame or motor mount areas, nothing. And yes, it would start with a "H."

On my RHD 1916 there is stamped a # on top of the wooden frame fastening the floor to the body (to the right of the drivers right foot.) It is also overstamped for some reason. The "clearest #" is H 20334. Built in Tarrytown.

Some detail photos of the remains of the ancient tires that you asked about - both rears shown - those are not the remnants of white walls, just the faded old casings

Great find, Don. And you can't beat that smile, standing there beside her. You do know that now you've got all of us thinking about every old barn we ever saw, especially those ones we never took the time to stop by and peak in. I'm sitting here looking again and again at those photos, and for some reason I'm humming that old song "Fairy tales can come true, it can happen to you...."

Thanks! Yep, this is pretty much my fairy tale coming true, alright.

Yesterday, I stole some time I couldn't really afford to take, hooked back up to the trailer after shoveling out a pathway to it, and pulled the car down to the Bureau of Motor Vehicles, to start that wonderful process of getting it titled, etc. Semi-blizzard conditions, great fun hooking up the trailer and pulling it downtown. When I came home, I decided I was going to just keep going and get it out of the trailer and into the Shop, I couldn't stand it any longer. So, after far too much physical effort, I have the old girl in the Shop, nice and warm now. And various parts of the old body hurt today, but that's OK, all worth it.

It doesn't roll very good at all with the totally flat, dead, fossilized tires of course (but the wheels all turn fine). So I jacked it up and put it on casters to be able to roll it around, once I got it down out of the trailer and onto the snow covered driveway. More fun. It was easy to winch it INTO the trailer, but a little different getting it out manually!

There's maybe a little more rust / rot damage in that right rear corner area than I was hoping, but whatever it takes, this car will live and run again! Now I can study the car, caress it, commune with it......

It sure looks happy to be in your nice shop!

Have you attempted to put the top irons up yet?

I haven't attempted to do anything yet, except get it inside, and look it over a little. And it will be a while, unfortunately.

I absolutely HAVE to finish (well, OK, have to start) the work on the '56 210 wagon that we are going to drive out to Tahoe for the Anniversary Meet, which is suddenly only 18 months from now! And that includes the engine coming out and going back in, full brake job, rebuild the front end, and God knows what else will reveal itself. But things will, we can count on that.

THEN, when the wagon is done and ready for a 6,000 mile trip - then, this Baby Grand becomes my focus. Gives me plenty of time to think it over.

Although I think I will drag the Baby Grand to the Central Meet this July, just as it is, to let folks see it. That's only 30 miles from home. Then I'm thinking the Baby Grand will be my project to bring to the 60th Anniversary Meet.

Chevyguru
I do not know which makes me more jealous your find or your garage, I want them both.
Ken

Had a chance to do a little more archaeology today, under the front seat. The crank start acetylene light early Baby Grands DID have an electric system, of sorts, beside the magneto. They had 4 dry cells under the front seat, the only purpose of which was to power the horn! (seems kind of like over-kill - why not just a squeeze bulb horn? A lot simpler and easier to build).

Anyway, it looks like possibly I still have the original dry cells in place, a century later! Patent date Sept, 1910, photo below - and a photo of an ad (from eBay) for the identical battery from a 1913 magazine ad. Kinda cool.

Great find, it reminds me of my father (Howard Dunlap) bringing home the 15 baby grand he found in simalar condition in a second floor shop of the local chevy dealer I was 8 or 10. I saw that have a list of all H chevys My dad had 2 the 15 baby grand and a 16 H 2 1/2 royal mail he sold the Royal to Daryll ??? that car I'd like to get back. I dont what happened to the baby grand.
Well great find Thanks Joe Dunlap

I knew that the Baby Grand would NOT stay in the trailer all winter. Great job with moving it inside your garage.

dtm

Awesome you have the original batteries. In the antique radio restoration hobby, there are those who create reproductions of original A and B type batteries using replaceable modern cells. It all starts with the labels. Before you do anything else, you should create high resolution color scans of your battery labels.

Cheers!

Did anyone else note the difference between the company location on the batteries and the ad? Looks like they moved about the time the batteries were produced.

Perhaps just before the name became Eveready? The Columbia label is the earliest I've seen.

Good eye, Chipper! I did not notice the "change of address." The Sept. 6, 1910 Patent Date stayed the same.

And Coachman28, I will most certainly do a very careful unrolling and high resolution scan of the battery wrappers, picking the best condition one. Fascinating stuff! The battery labels/covers you posted are copyright dated 1925 (?) it looks like, and mention the radio application. Naturally, the ones in the car (1910) do not, since the new-fangled radio technology had not yet happened! I guess I will forgo the ability to have tunes, and be happy I have a high-tech electric horn. Besides,with the wonderful sound of an early Chevy 4, no more pleasant sounds are required. Life is good.