Hi, I have just had a good friend seriously injured by being thrown out of a vintage car in a crash, due to lack of seat belts. Has anyone any ideas on the possibility of suitable anchorages for 3 point belts - or more likely just lap belts?
I am going to tackle this as well when I get there on 1929, at the minimum LAP Belts. Was a s AACA meeting this weekend, and a LOT of the 20's-30's era had lap belts, even saw a rumble seat w/ Lap Belts.
I am going to find a way to secure them to either the seat frame to the frame below. want to ensure they do NOT come lose by any means.
Want to do at least 2 on each bench, may try three on the rear.
If ANYONE has done this, I myself would like to see some pictures of the install !!
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Never thought I would put belts in but after Friday afternoon my roadster will have belts. I did find out that my stock 32 sedan will spin the tires on dry pavement. I needed to launch it into oncoming traffic to avoid getting rear ended. Thankfully the oncoming car saw what was going on and sped up to open up the lane . I really ------ hate people that text and drive. I am going to fabricate metal frames under the front and rear seats that will bolt to the frame . the open car has way less protection than the closed car. Would like to see what others have done as well.
My question.....do you what to be in a roadster in a major crash or be able to get out as fast as you can? What is a seat belt going to do that is hooked to wood? Just a question.
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Lap belt will save your life in a 30mph hit, as it will keep you in the car. Anything above that, and I doubt there is much more than luck that will save you, seat belt or not. I'm assuming these guys are talking about mounting them to the steel frame under the car, not the wood frame. If it has to be to wood floor boards, I'd put a big metal plate under it as an anchor point.
Those accustomed to the finest...find it in Chevrolet. 1953 Belair Convertible 1951 2dr Deluxe Sedan 2015 GMC SLE 4X4
When I restored my 31 coupe and a friends 32 four door I installed lap belts, even in the rumble. The method I used was to lay a piece of channel iron across and on top of the chassis just behind the seats. I used spacers to position the channel right up tight under the floor. Anchored it to the chassis with grade 8 half inch bolts. I also welted grade 8 nuts to the under side of the channel so I could just install the belt anchor bolts from the top. There is enough room between the chassis top and the floor boards for the channel iron, at least on the 31 32's, Also just did my 36 coupe but was able to put the channel on top of the floor and spacers between chassis top and floor. Hope this helps.
I'd check with your insurance company before you do anything,as to the legalities of fitting seat belts to a wooden framed car.It's illegal to do so in Australia.
Need to get the body back on the frame then Ill figure a way to get the seat belt brackets in. If I can figure a way to put in shoulder harnesses Ill do that to. Not sure if there are any legalities in Canada most people wouldn't know the difference . The trick will be to get the anchors in the center of the car in and to make it look factory and strong. More worried of the strong. I have a couple of mechanical engineer friends so ill have to enlist there input.
Jack… Our legalities in Canada: If a car was built before seat belts were made mandatory(1963 in Ont.), you can still use the car without them. Once you make the decision to add them, you are legally obligated to use them. You can't decide to get into your roadster and not put them on, then tell the officer that the car didn't come with them anyway. They are there, they have to be used.
One thing that I am a little unclear on is children and seat belts. According to our highway traffic act, they don't have to be belted in if the car is pre-1963… but you may then fall under child endangerment laws, and have your kids taken away. Not a loop hole I'm willing to test!
Those accustomed to the finest...find it in Chevrolet. 1953 Belair Convertible 1951 2dr Deluxe Sedan 2015 GMC SLE 4X4
Wood in good condition is strong, but it's also about how bolts are anchored so they don't pull through in an accident where the vehicle comes to a sudden stop, and passenger and seat frames don't.
Those accustomed to the finest...find it in Chevrolet. 1953 Belair Convertible 1951 2dr Deluxe Sedan 2015 GMC SLE 4X4
Would like to see a diagram or some pictures from someone, using a 3point seat belt at the drivers place in pre war car. In a front crash the drivers brain shell will push the horn in the middle of the steering wheel at first, nobody has such strong arms to hold back your upper body even at speeds higher then 10 to 15km/h. Passenger and rear side with 2point seat belts - always better then nothing. Never forget, in our cars you will not find any deformation zone - means that the whole kinetic energy in a hard front crash have to be absorbed in a very short way > the high negative acceleration (force) will kill you !
m/2 * v² = F * s .... |mass |velocity |force |stretch
and its very tricky, humans brain can't handle the ( v² ) term
In any crash in these old cars your going to get hurt. As far a loosing the kids to foster care well. It might let me get more chrome. Hmmm have to think on that one .... Just kidding . The way chevy made the wood stronger was to encapsulate it with Sheet metal. Not sure how to calculate the strength. Pretty sure that no matter how strong you make a restraint it still wouldn't make the rest of the car strong enough to withstand a modern car hit. Need to educate people that our classic cars don't go as fast or stop as fast. Too many impatient people these days .
Maybe a full roll cage. Or a loaded shotgun to get the attention of the distracted drivers . Definitely sure the car body wouldn't take much of a hit. Just don't want to get tossed out on the road.
I also think that the doorpost ( B pillar) wouldn't be strong enough as a (fix) anchorage point to install a 3point seat belt system. Think the way to go is using the the B pillar only as a redirection point for the force and hook the belt in the rear to the frame. So the force can flow in a "good" line over the human shoulder only over two flat angle to the frame in the back. The other possibility may be using a full belt safety harness, known in sports cars. Looks laughable in a vintage > who laughs last laughs longest.
The most dangerous spot is behind the steering column !
Bill Damm in the Seattle area put 3 point seat belts in his 29 coupe and documented the install. I believe it is in one of the G & D tech sessions. The problem is that you can not attach to the actual car frame. Think it through and it will make sense. You will need to reinforce all of the wood around your mounting points and proceed from there. Our 28 Fisher bodied Chrysler has seat belts but we have never tried them out. I am working on an open car project and may consider them for it. Keep us posted on your progress.
When I completed my speedster, I added seat belts, then thought better of it.
When they started belting us into our cars, the car was designed to absorb part of the energy of the crash. The car becomes sacrificial, to protect the driver...
Look at the frame and construction of your car. Is it going to absorb a crash, to protect you? Mine isn't. If that car stops, the belt will stop me very quickly... I took them off.
It's like a friend said... 'Are you sure you want to be straped into that thing?' Good question.
In the early days of automotive vehicles they were designed as rigid as possible (frame construction). In case of a unconventionally short stopping time the passengers were subjected to enormous delays. The idea of the crumple/deformation zone (long way S ) is directed to the reduction of the ( slow down F )force acting on the passenger, and the negative acceleration can be derived from the equation for the work ( W ). In crash-moment the in the vehicle stored kinetic energy is converted into deformation energy and heat.
The seat belt is made of woven plastic fibre, approximately 50 mm wide, has a thickness of 1.2 mm and an elongation of 5 -18% at a load of 11 kN (1200 kgf). For the force acting on the passengers the elongation properties of the safety belts are of major importance.
As you can see the only crash or deformation zone you can have in a vintage cars is the elongation of 5 -18% from the seatbelt. (in its best way an 3point automatic belt with pretension).
Let's take a look inside this crash clip: You can stop the clip in the moment of impact, the front headlights are already destroyed (car front stopped), but your body is still travelling at the same speed as before !!!
Seatbelts are estimated to reduce the overall risk for serious injuries in crashes by 60-70% and the risk for fatalities by about 45%. In roll overs, the risk of fatalities for a belted occupant is reduced by roughly 75%.
BTW: In most cases we don't have a total front crash, mostly a halve or something like that with a strong rotation, so to stay inside the sheet-coach may be important.
In the early days of automotive vehicles they were designed as rigid as possible (frame construction). In case of a unconventionally short stopping time the passengers were subjected to enormous delays. The idea of the crumple/deformation zone (long way S ) is directed to the reduction of the ( slow down F )force acting on the passenger, and the negative acceleration can be derived from the equation for the work ( W ). In crash-moment the in the vehicle stored kinetic energy is converted into deformation energy and heat.
The seat belt is made of woven plastic fibre, approximately 50 mm wide, has a thickness of 1.2 mm and an elongation of 5 -18% at a load of 11 kN (1200 kgf). For the force acting on the passengers the elongation properties of the safety belts are of major importance.
As you can see the only crash or deformation zone you can have in a vintage cars is the elongation of 5 -18% from the seatbelt. (in its best way an 3point automatic belt with pretension).
Let's take a look inside this crash clip: You can stop the clip in the moment of impact, the front headlights are already destroyed (car front stopped), but your body is still travelling at the same speed as before !!!
Seatbelts are estimated to reduce the overall risk for serious injuries in crashes by 60-70% and the risk for fatalities by about 45%. In roll overs, the risk of fatalities for a belted occupant is reduced by roughly 75%.
BTW: In most cases we don't have a total front crash, mostly a halve or something like that with a strong rotation, so to stay inside the sheet-coach may be important.
Have a good trip ! When I installed seat belts in my 32 i anchored the shoulder strap on the door post, but first ran a 3/16 thick steel bar from the steel floor bracket to the roof wood. For extra strength, welded a top bar running about 6 inches along the roof wood. All secured to the wood with many 1/4 " diameter flat head wood screws. Then covered it all with upholstery. This was only for the front seats. Norm
@ Nkopp : thanks for your comment and description of your 3point seat belt installation.
Let's have look at the attached image. The door post is not absolutely necessary for the installation of a 3 (4) point safety belt as an anchor point - suitable for 2 and 4-door and Roadster.
OK, looks even worse in our case, because our backrest is even without the head rest lower, an elegant solution should be found for the running of the belt. A steel bar for the anchor points from metal frame to metal frame should be strong enough for a secure mounting of the automatic locking devices.
Twin-jet F-4 Phantom flying too low and John Paul STAPP, M.D., Ph.DColonel, USAF flight surgeon and pioneer in studying the effects of acceleration and deceleration forces on humans -
Probably the most impressive video clips on the kinetic energy - as mentioned > human brain can't handle the ( v² ) term <
A) Phantom F4 > weight 13000 kg, speed 800 km/h without a energy absorbing zone.
B ) Col. Stapp > weight 75 kg , speed 1020 km/h with a energy absorbing zone and seat belts.
At this point I would like to thank all these people for their great commitment and effort. - Chapeau! Mr. Col. Stapp
It may be that it is this mindset that we miss today ?
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