VCCA Home Forums TECHNICAL - GENERAL Electrical - 6 volt '50 electrical... again!!

My convertible was running fine (for it) last week. Then it stalled. I pushed it halfway down the street before it fired, got it home, and it wouldn't start again. I have power from the coil to the points, then no power to the plugs. The points are clean, and gapped right. I have swapped the distributor cap with two others I have, and tried a different rotor. Also tried a different condenser. What else am I missing?? How do you tell if a condenser works?

check the points spring it could be grounding to the distributor case. Al

I'd clean the points or replace them. Don

The points are cleaned...and look good. Tried another set as well, just in case. I'll have a look at the spring. If the condenser was bad, how would the current react? Would it still send spark to the plugs?

If the condenser is bad or the outside case is not grounded then you will only get a weak spark at best.

Have you pulled the the center wire out of the distributor cap and see if you have spark coming from the coil to the cap. You could also put a vote meter on the mines side of the coil and see if the meter changes when the points open and close.(best to use an analog meter)

How is the outside of the case grounded? Is it a wire or just the fact it meets the block through the shaft? We did check the centre wire in the distributor as well.

The condenser is generally grounded by a clamp around the body and screw into the distributor. I have seen them hanging loose and that does not work.

Yes for sure pull the center wire out of the distributor, put the end 1/2" from a good ground on the engine block and open and close the points. If you don't get a "snappy" spark, short across the points with screwdriver. If you get a better spark that way, clean or replace the points. If neither gives a strong "snappy" spark, check to make sure you have power to the coil and if so replace the condenser.

Thanks for your help guys... I'll get back to it next week. Right now I'm in Dublin drinking beer! Cheers!

GOOD MAN ENJOY!

This is really getting frustrating now! I went and bought a new condenser and points. I have spark at the points, but it still won't fire. I added a ground from the distr. base to the block just in case it wasn't grounding right I swapped the cap,wires and rotor with the ones on my '51, and the '51 still runs! One thing I noticed is that the entire distributor is "turned" a quarter turn different on the '51 than the '50. The shop manual for the '51 says to start wire #1 furthest from the block, and work clockwise around the cap. It was set up this way, and works fine. For the '50 should I start furthest from the block, or in the same spot on the distributor, which is more up the left side? How do I tell? What else am I missing here?

When you write "still won't fire" what does that mean? No spark when center wire pulled from distributor cap, put 1/2" from ground and points opened and closed? Or no spark at the plugs? What happens when you short across the points with a screwdriver blade?

Have you checked to see if you might have a loose wire or bad connection that works when the engine is not turning but wiggles enough that it does not when the engine vibrates?

I guess I need to be a little more clear! I've been working on this alone for the most part,and there's some things I just do not have the experience with. Today I replaced the points, and had Jane come out and hit the starter for me to check for spark. There was spark there, but I'm not sure what a strong or weak one looks like. I also don't know what's happening after I put the cap back on. The cap and rotor worked on the '51 together, but not on the '50. If I'm getting spark at the points, it means I'm getting it from the coil in the centre wire, right? My neighbour was helping me use the check light last week, but wasn't around today... I'll have to wait for him to check some of these wires till I have him again to help.

If you can't answer our questions then it is very difficult to help you.
If you have spark at the points that is good. I means you have power to the points. But since the points are only a switch a spark only indicates that the switch is working. If you have a spark that will jump at least 1/2" when the distributor end of the center wire from the coil to the distributor is placed next to a ground (like the side of the engine block) it indicates that the coil and condenser are likely working as they should. It is the opening and closing the points (switch) that creates high enough voltage to jump a gap.

A single person can perform that test. Just take off the distributor cap, remove the center wire and hold the end next to a ground (a pair of gloves or insulated pliers are good to hold the wire) and open an close the points a few times. If the points are already open then take a screwdriver and short across the point arms. You should get a spark that will jump a 1/2" gap and make a "snap" sound. If it does not do that then let us know.

OK... that makes a lot of sense. I didn't realize the test you were describing was measuring the strength of the spark... I've got the battery on the charger overnight, and will try that out in the morning. Thanks for your help and patience... It's really my first time getting this involved in it!

OK... so I have a jumping spark to the engine block. The points were open a bit, so I got a jump there every time I went near it with the screwdriver as well. I'm assuming the coil is fine because I switched it with the one that was on the '51, and both coils work on it. When I put the cap back on, it cranks with lots of power, but it seems nothing is coming to the plug wires. I switched the cap and rotor and wires with the ones on the '51, and same thing. So I guess my question is do you think it's a timing problem? How could the timing get so far off, so fast as it seemed to run fine one day, then nothing the next? Also, would anything with the advance be an issue here?

What do you mean about getting spark to the engine block but not up to the plug wires? Have you held a plug wire near the block and cranked the engine and not gotten a spark? It doesn't make sense that you have switched everything around with your other car and it works there but not on this one. Is there up and down play in the distributor shaft? If you get spark to the center wire but not to the plug wires, it seems that the rotor is not closing with the cap contacts correctly. Have you cranked the engine with the cap off the distributor to see if the shaft/rotor turns? Can you turn the shaft by hand? It's possible that the shaft to drive gear pin sheared.

If you are getting spark to the plug wires:

You mentioned earlier that the distributor doesn't line up the same as your other car. Do you remember it having been the same previously? It is possible that the distributor clamp wasn't tight enough and it shifted either under hard acceleration or backing off. You can check this by pulling the #1 plug and bringing it up on compression and then checking to see if the rotor lines up on the #1 spark plug wire. It sounds like you have checked most everything else.

Or you could just put a timing light on it and check that way. An advance problem could put it off a little, but I think it would still be close enough to start.

A timing light... that's something I need to buy! OK... so I went and had another go at it. I first checked the amount of spark on the '51... It seems to get a better "jump" from the dist wire to the engine block. Jane was home now, so I had her crank it while I checked the wires. They are getting a low spark, but it will jump more than the plug gap. I cleaned and gapped the plugs as well, but they didn't seem too bad. Since I switched the coil already, I'm wondering if there's much more before that that I can change? I am pretty sure that the battery ground is OK, because it cranks at the proper speed. Could it be the voltage going into the coil that is low? The distributor shaft is turning, but it plays up and down about an eighth of an inch. Is this normal? The distributor has always been turned a bit compared to the '51. I can't turn it by hand. You mentioned bringing the compression up on cylinder #1. How do you tell when it's at the top?

Not sure if you can tell here, but the wire going into the distributor base is at 6o'clock on the '50, and 4o'clock on the '51.

What happens when you pour a small amount of gas into the throat of the carburetor or squirt some carburetor cleaner into the throat while someone else cranks it over? Maybe the problem is gas not ignition.

There's gas... after I try it for some time it floods over. Is it possible it's running too rich? I changed the plugs today as well... Still light on the spark...

Yes, It definitely can be too much fuel. Try removing the fuel line from the tank to the fuel pump, drain the line, dry any gas and then try to start it again. May take a while for it to fire if the cylinders already have too much gas in them.

I think the only difference between the two distributors is that one was removed and not put back in right; probably the bottom one. Seems that #1 should be at the front like on the upper one.

If you want to realign it, you can pull the distributor, stick a large screw driver into the hole and turn the oil pump till it will line up with the bottom of the distributor when it turns as you push it down with the rotor pointing straight forward and the #1 plug wire going to the front tower.

Actually, it looks like your cap is set up right, and if you line the rotor up to point at the tower #1 is in now, when you pull the distributor and align the pump so that the rotor points to the front, the wire connector will be on the side like your other one.

Or you can just leave it as is, because it doesn't have anything to do with your current problem.

The ground and/or positive battery terminal could still be part of the problem, because the starter takes all the juice it needs and may not leave enough for the ignition. How is the spark from the coil when you close the points? Any different from the other car? I forgot; did you try push starting it? Did you check to see if the rotor points at #1 terminal when the #1 cylinder comes up on compression?

1/8th inch play on the shaft may be a bit much but not so much to keep the car from starting. Did you try turning the shaft by hand? What you said above made me think you tried turning the distributor body by hand. Did you put the coil from the other car in and try it?

Going brain dead, so I'd better shut down now.

The correct position for the number one spark plug wire is at the six o'clock position on the distributor cap, and the rotor should be pointing to that same tower on the cap when your timing mark is lined up with the pointer on the flywheel. Your distributor or your spark plug wires might be 180 degrees out.

This is what is confusing me about the whole thing... I have switched the coil, and the one that was on the car is now working fine on the other car. I don't think the wires are all 180 degrees out, because the car ran set up like this fine the past 20 years. I think I'll take a look at the ground... that makes sense if it's possible that the starter is using all of the juice. When it started acting up I push started it in the driveway, and it went. The next time it took the whole driveway and halfway down the street. The last time we had to push it home! Jane hates pushing!

Get a test lead and connect one end to the + battery terminal and the other to the + on the coil. Try and start it or check for good spark. Don't leave the test lead connected to long without trying to start car / test for spark. If the car starts you should be able to take the wire of and the car should continue to run.