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Don Williams originally asked this question 8 years ago in the former Chevy Chat session and I thought I would bring up this interestion subject again in this forum and then take the "infinite collective wisdom" of this forum and put this response in the March 2011 Chevrolet Review pages in the G&D. Below is what Don and others wrote back in 2002.
kenK
WHERE IS THE OLDEST INTACT CHEVY?
I was wondering... just a question, don't know the answer. What's the oldest Chevy still intact out there? Got thinking about this after reading about Pinky being on the last 4 Cyl. Tour with his 1914 Light Six.
I spent an hour going through the latest Roster from 2001, the green one. In the front, it indicates that there are a total of three 1912 models listed. I found all 3 of them. Ken Kaufmann's ”˜12 Little in CA, Bob Little (no pun intended?) has a ”˜12 Little in PA, and Sam Jaffe in NY has a ”˜12 Little.
Now, I don't want to argue about whether or not a Little is a Chevrolet. Don't care, that's another story. But I'm wondering about the oldest Chevrolet that KNOWS it's a Chevrolet, as in "Classic Six;" not a Little - no disrespect intended for those who own Little's. If one came my way, I'd take it, too. From what I understand about the Roster, it is only indicat-ing the results of people who have listed the cars they own. What else could it do?
That means there may be members who own early cars who don't list them to be visible in the Roster. And of course there may well be misguided people who own early Chevy’s that are NOT in the VCCA. Obviously, their cars would not appear either.
I bet the Sloan Museum has an old Chevy or two. Maybe at Henry Ford's place, too (God forbid, but I'm sure they have some stuff - can't remember, haven't been there for years). There are zillions of other museums out there, too, of course.
I did not yet find the two 1913 models that are indicated in the Roster, don't know who owns them, or what model they are?
Then I thought of the infinite collective wisdom available here, and thought I'd post this. Anybody know of a genuine, bona fide 1912 out there any-where? Don W
I'm sure Ken Kaufmann is the man to ask. I think the oldest one known is #93, a 1913 Model C that is in a museum in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada. I would like to know more about the present condition of this car. Dave D
I thought I remembered reading something Ken Kaufman (I think?) had done a few years ago in G&D, talking about the early pictures of the proto-types, like "this is car #2 in front of such and such buildings, with X at the wheel", etc. Can't remember.
Surely some museum must still have one of those original 2,999 editions of the 1912? Don W
The oldest 1913 Chevrolet Type C Six is #93 that was built in Detroit with the English Air starter, which I estimate was built in July 1913 - just before production shifted to Flint. Stan Reynolds found this #93 in the 40's, and this unrestored chassis [that is missing its body] was given to the Reynolds-Alberta Museum in Wetaskiwin, Alberta. See the September 1996 G&D for more info.Chevrolet production re-cords as printed in the July 1988 G&D list only 402 Type C's production cars were built during 1913-4.
This same Car Production Record dated 4-14-17 list that Chevrolet built 2,999 Little 4 during 1912-3 and 494 Little 6 in 1913.
The oldest car with a Chevrolet Bowtie emblem on the radiator is the 1914 Baby Grand H-4 prototype owned by Chevrolet since 1920. See the May 1986 G&D for more data. Chevrolet reported its chassis is stamped #1 and dates from 1912 with the body in-stalled in early 1913. The oldest known 1914 H model is a 1914 Royal Mail H-2 #64 owned since the early 30's by a Chevy Dealer in Wis. Ken K
OK, I have read Ken's answers above with great interest & attention, and also reviewed the various G&D articles he has mentioned.
Again, in this conversation we are excluding vehicles with other badges, i.e., Little, Monroe, Whit-ing, etc.
To summarize and make sure we have this straight; there is no such thing as a 1912 Chevrolet.
If I understand Ken's Sept. 1996 article, the very first Chevrolet-badged cars began with 5 units built in December 1912, as 1913 models "Type C - Six." (built in Detroit). Then, per Ken, we have a total of 58 (including the 5 from Dec. '12) built as 1913 models, ending in June 1913. Ken also notes that it may be 51 units, not 58.
After the arbitrary cut-off in June, they began selling the cars as 1914 models, raised the price to $2,500, but made no actual changes in the cars. They also moved production to Flint in that time period. These were still "Type C - Six", but about the same time as they began calling them 1914 models, they came up with the name "Classic" in July 1913.
Therefore, any existing 1913 model, of which only (approx.) 58 were built, would properly be called a "Type C - Six", and the same car built after that point in time (June 1913) would be called a 1914 Classic Six".
So to re-summarize, there are zero 1912 Chevro-lets - never any built. There were about 58 1913 models built. We know of one of at the Sloan Mu-seum, which is referred to as "Number One" and has been owned by Chevrolet since 1920 (G&D May '86). The article indicates that this car chassis was built in 1912 and bodied in 1913. Per Ken's criteria, this qualifies it as a 1913 model. The next oldest Chevrolet now known is #93, in Alberta, which Ken estimates was built in July 1913, and which therefore presumably would have actually been sold as a 1914. Guess that also makes it a 'Classic Six', therefore.
It was a little confusing when looking at Ken's May '86 article, in that he says in the first paragraph that, basically, "there is no such thing as a 1913 model." But then he says that in May or June 1913 they began calling the production units "1914" - this begs the question (per my above analysis of the articles) "Would not those 58 units built PRIOR to June 1, 1913 therefore have been 1913 models?" If the switch to 1914 took place in the summer, what else could you call the cars built prior to that switch over?
So, we have one 1913 model know, at the Sloan Museum. Does anybody happen to know what 2 cars are listed in the VCCA Roster as ”˜13's? More Littles?
Let's hope Chevrolet brings out "Old Number One" at the 2011 50th Anniv. Meet! Don W
Regarding the “Number One” Model H Baby Grand prototype or experimental model, in which the chassis was built in 1912, I would not label this Model H a 1913 model. I would call it a pre-production 1914 Model H-4, since prototype models usually are dated for the model year they are de-signed for. This 1914 prototype has not been in the Sloan Museum for about the last 20 years … Chevrolet has it in storage.
The May 86 article was on this 1914 Baby Grand prototype. The “no such thing as a 1913 model” was in reference to the 1914 Model H’s.
Yes, the first Chevrolet Sixes are 1913 models - up to somewhere between 51 and 100 estimate serial numbers. I original tabulated the number of 1913-14 Chevrolet Sixes Type C built, as 402 built in Flint plus another 97 built in Detroit, but since the state registration search never turned up a Type C serial # past the 400 mark, I now believe the reported 402 built includes total production, and I need to go back and adjust the early monthly production units.
The two 1913 models that are listed in the VCCA 2001 Roster are:
1913 Little 6 #106 in Nebraska
1913 Little 4 #2596 in Texas
Regards how the VCCA should list the 1912, 1913, and 1914 Model Years in the Roster.
1912 MODELS
Little 4 [built from April 1912 to mid July 1912 that includes serial numbers up to 500]
1913 MODELS
Little 4 [built mid-July 1912 to 1913 that includes serial number 501 and up.
Little 6 [built December 1912 to 1913
Chevrolet 6 Type C [built from December 1912 to about mid July 1913 that includes serial num-bers up to somewhere between 51 and 100?]
1914 MODELS
Model H [Built from August 1913 and up
Model L Light 6 {Built from Nov-Dec ”˜13 & up
It is possible that the #93 Type C could have started being built in Detroit in the summer of 1913 and was one of the cars that were driven up to Flint as a bare chassis? So even though it has Detroit hubcaps, it might not have been completed in Flint until several months later - say Sept. of 1913 as a 1914 model?
The Sloan Museums Type C is #323, that it still claimed to be a 1912 model, most likely was built after January 1914 as a 1914 model.
So it is possible that a very early 1914 Model H like the Royal Mail #64 that I estimate was built in August 1913 could be an earlier built Chevy then the #93 Type C?
The real question should be, if Chevrolet as part of its 100 year Anniversary in 2011, have a "Oldest Chevrolet Car Contest" like they did back for its 25th Anniversary in 1936, what car would be authenti-cated? Some of the rules that applied back in 1936, where that it had to be currently licensed and driven, and a Chevrolet employee or dealer couldn’t own it. I am not sure if a pre-production car like the #1 Baby Grand would have been qualified, or if the car was missing its body or had been made into a speedster?
I mentioned Chevrolets Oldest Chevrolet Contest a few posts back and wondered if Chevrolet would have such a contest again in 2011?
See the April G&D for more about the winner of this contest, who was a Hiram Dohner of Quentin, PA who still owned and operated a 1914 Royal Mail #470 in 1936-37.
I always wondered what happened to this car?
Well Ray tracked it down and the current owner is the Swigart Museum in Huntingdon, PA.
Chevrolet also had an Oldest Chevy Truck Con-test in 1947, but it was a sham because they only allowed entries from 1918 Model T One Tonners - forgetting that Chevrolet built 490 Delivery Trucks in 1916-17 at its St Louis and Oakland, CA plants - that at that time were not owned by Chevrolet. kenK
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Wow...that's a lot of info in one thread! I've always hoped someone uncovers the first Classic Six. Just because we all like pictures, here's one of what I thought was the world's oldest Chevrolet (uncomplete) at the Reynolds Museum in Alberta ![[Linked Image from i150.photobucket.com]](http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s84/brewsterg6/1913ChevroletClassicSix.jpg)
Last edited by brewster; 12/21/10 05:43 PM.
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Very, very interesting (at least to me!), Ken. Serendipitously, I just re-read those very same posts from 2002 about a week ago, and was wondering if we could somehow coax GM to drag out Old Number One again, too.
I will see what I can get rolling, but definitely no promises.
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The Sloan Museum is developing some special Chevrolet displays for next summer. I believe that several Lower Michigan Region VCCA members may have their Chevrolets included in the displays in the Sloan. A significant early model Chevrolet could possibly be included in the Sloan for next summer. The Director of the Sloan Museum has been working very closely with the VCCA for our 50th Anniversary Meet.
dtm
( I wonder if the Sloan is looking to display a Marina Blue 1966 Chevelle ? )
the toolman
60th Anniversary Meet Chairperson
Dave
VCCA # L 28873
VCCA #83 Tool Technical Advisor for 1914-1966
VCCA #83 1940 Chevrolet Technical Advisor
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Excuxse me for bumping in here but the first imports into the UK were: 1914 21.9 H.P. MODEL H-2 2-SEATER TOURING 21.9 H.P. MODEL H-4 4-SEATER TOURING imported by the British Isles Motor Company of London. However, the earliest known from rego records are a possible couple of 1917 490 chassis bodied by Van den Plas, and sold in Glasgow (Scotland), and several 1919 Models including an Oshawa car! The oldest known preserved car is 1920 Model 490 Tourer ex-Tarrytown: chassis # 2 88798 engine # R2499. However, the British also had a competition once! General Motors World January 1939 published details of an amazing story. In order to relaunch the Chevrolets onto the U.K. market again after an absence of nearly 7 years, General Motors Limited conceived of a novel method of re-establishing contacts with previous Chevrolet users. The decision was made in the summer of 1938 to launch a retail saleman’s contrest cleverly designed to renew its friendship with Chevrolet buyers. It was known that many users were still running Chevrolet commercial vehicles, and for the benefit of these owners, the dealers, their salesmen and service men, the idea of a contest seemed especially well laid.
The contents folder was emblazoned “Chase the Chevrolets”. The idea was to find the old Chevrolets and obtain the story behind their years of service. The following prizes were offered by General Motors Limited:
1. £15 for the competitior sending in details of the largest number of old Chevrolet trucks; £10 for the competitor sending in the second largest, and £5 for the third largest.
2. £15 for the competitor sending in the best story of the most distinguished service given by an old Chevrolet; £10 for the second best, and £5 for the third best.
3. £10 for the competitor sending in the details of the oldest Chevrolet still in active service. Certain authentications were stipulated as required in making returns.
The very nature of the contest appealed to the retail staff, and sales and service men in practically all Chevrolet dealerships went on a treasure hunt for old Chevrolets. The results were simply remarkable! General Motors Limited ultimately found 1,027 old but active Chevrolet trucks! Some excellent histories were reported, as well as remarkable mielage and service stories, and valuable new contacts made. On mileage analysis, three old Chevrolet trucks had done over 600,000 miles, three others more than 500,000, 6 more than 400,000, 17 more than 300,000, 95 more than 200,000, and 349 more than 100,000 miles! However, the mileage record was reported by the owner of a 1926 Bus, and so either a Model R or X, which had run 600,800 miles! An analysis of the ages of trucks showed that of these 1,027 discovered, 143 were so old that their age could not be discovered, which suggests that these were at least 1923 Models, possibly ! 1 however was definitely 1922, which was therefore a 1922 Model 490 Light Delivery chassis, Oshawa-assembled. 1 was definitely 1923, so was either a Superior Model G 1-Tonner, or a Superior Light Delivery [Model B]. 2 were 1924, 6 were 1925, 19 were 1926, 43 were 1927, 88 were 1928, 203 were 1929 [LQ or AC Light Delivery]. Further, 261 were 1930 , 258 were 1931, and 4 were 1932 Models [Vauxhall-built]. The prize for the oldest Chevrolet still in operation was submitted by J.E. Colback of Parade Garage, Jersey, for a truck which had been purchased by its then owner some years previously, and which had covered 127,830 miles. The engine had never been rebored but had been recarbonised six years previously. The Engine # quoted was R 6258, and the truck was allegedly either a 1923 or 1924 Model. This does not in fact make sense if the engine was the original: # R 6258 was a r.h.d. engine produced in the spring of 1920 at the Flint Chevrolet engine plant, a magneto-equipped unit, and would have been fitted in a 1920 Model 490 Light Delivery chassis assembled in the Tarrytown Plant, with a chassis/frame number of around 2A 0500. Guesstimates suggest that the vehicle would have been registered in early 1921. However, # CPXR 6258 was produced by Canadian Products Limited as an export r.h.d. engine, and was installed in a 1922 Model 490 Light Delvery chassis, around the # 9A 58000 chassis number; registration evidence has shown that contemporary vehicles were registered in 1923, which suggests that the dating may have been correct and that the truck was in fact a ’22 Model.
An operator of a “30 cwt.”, but in reality a 25 cwt. LO or LP, 1928 Model dropside truck in Leeds, Yorkshire, said “She’s done 250,000 miles and’s a reet top ”˜oler and most reliable. Never ”˜ad nowt wrong t’mean ”˜owgth. She’ll do a bit yet.” A photograph of the truck loaded to the gunnels, and a 1929 LQ were featured in at least one of the advertisements published by General Motors Limited in December 1938 for the new Southampton-assembled trucks. The LQ was owned by Messrs. H.H. Woodward of Leeds, and had done over 387,090 miles. The owners said “ Running all-day, 6-days per week. Never been held up for any serious trouble. Rebored once”. Further, in very small print, the advertisments stated that two Chevrolet trucks, 1927 and 1928 Models respectively, owned by Peter Batchelor of Glasgow, had each done over 225,000 miles to that time, and had apparently never been rebored and both did over 800 miles to the gallon of…….oil!
A photograph of a whole fleet of vans on the 30 cwt. LQ, LR and LT chassis was published in General Motors World, owned by E.R. Halford Limited of Bradford, Yorkshire. Four were LQ chassis, one 1931 and ten 1930 LR chassis! So where is the oldest extant exported car? There seem to be some 1916 cars in Australia.
Last edited by Oracle; 12/23/10 03:45 PM.
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The oldest Chevrolet in Nordic countries(Finland, Sweden, Denmark, Iceland and Norway), as to my knowledge is the beautifully restored green Royal Mail Roadster 1915 to Hans Peter Nielsen in Denmark. It has been presented on top of these pages and in yesteryear's Merry Christmas message. I have to ask him where he got it from. Solan (1916/490) might be the second oldest, but was imported from Australia in 2002. The oldest "domestic" Chevrolet in Norway would be a 1917. I know my grandgrandfather bought a new 1919 Touring. The oldest running GMC (truck) here is a 1919 tanker, and the oldest Chevrolet commercial(pick up) from 1924, just finished. 
Solan G, # 32797
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The oldest Chev in Australia is a recently fully restored Australian delivery 1914 RM, the same owner also has a few early engines. I had adverts of 1914 Chevs sold in Australia. There a few 1915 H cars, which include my Amesbury Special. We also have a few early Littles
Chris
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The oldest Chevrolet nameplate in Australia, 1914 H2 #676 which was imported several years from Southern California, is owned by the gentleman in Queensland who once owned the 1916 490 Solan. The oldest Chev 4 nameplate in New Zealand is a 1914 H2 #N1880 that was imported out of New York several years ago. This same gentleman recently has imported the 1913 Little Four #812 that was in a garage fire in Flint Mich years ago. The 1913 Little Four #1581 was imported from Central California and belongs to the big Chevrolet collector Eric Parker of South Aust. who has 1914 H2 #3650 that was imported. There is a 1914 H4 in England and a 1914 H2 in the Netherlands. A 1913 Little Four #2886 is down in South Africa. I know of about (30) 1912-3 Little Fours out of 2999 built and only about (18) 1914 H2 out of about 4000 built. Chevrolet recors show only 402 Type C touring car built.
kenK
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Ken
Do you know the # of Alan Carpenter's Little which is an 1913/4 Australian import and restored over 30 years ago.
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Yes - Alan's 1913 Little 4 roadster #3007 is the highest serial number known. Since 2999 is the number of Littles built in Flint - then this 3007 might have been assembled by the Republic Motor Co. of New York. with its plant at 57th St and 11th Ave. I just heard from Alan a few days ago asking if I had seen the 1912 Little Four #218 sell at a auction a few months ago - which I did. Alan also asked if the so-called #56 speedster belonging to the late Jim Everett in Victoria could of been a Whiting? When this brass speedster was auction off by the Shannon group a few years ago, the #56 was removed from the catalog and another ID # was listed. There was a lot of miss dating and model ID back then. I have seen where a few Little Fours were called and registered as Republic cars, and Little Sixes registered as Sterlings. My Little Four was registered in California in at least 1917 as a Chevrolet.
I recall that the 1914 Chevrolet H4 #1 that has been owned by Chevrolet since 1920 is today in the GM Heritage Collection was actually, along with its BABY_GRAND Name plate, designed and built in Flint by the Little Motor Car Co. So even the H4 #1 was a Little touring car and basicly the Chevrolet Bowtie wasn't added to the raditor shell until July of 1913.
kenK
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Ken, the oldest known Oshawa car we know of is: TOURING CAR 7405 Has a plate: Registered in US Patent Office
Registered in Dominion of Canada
Chevrolet Motor Company of Canada
Oshawa, Ontario Canada I wish a Toronto-built car was still around!
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I just talked to Greg Wallace, the Director of the GM Heriage Center. I incquired about "Old Number One."
This is the car Ken Kaufmann talked about early in this thread.
Bad news - if GM still owns it, they don't know where it is....
I am working with Greg right now to see if we can figure out if they still have it somewhere.
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The Hiram Dohner car got me to thinking..I had seen the video of this car on YouTube, so I checked out the Swigert Museum car. It appears that the Dohner car was a roadster, and the Swigert car is a four door. Did Dohner cut off the back of his car and someone restored it?
Dan
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The Hiram Dohner's 1914 H-2, ROYAL MAIL, Car No. 470 should have been well documented by the local Chevrolet dealer in 1935 and by Chevrolet Oldest Chevy Contest officials. However, sometimes mistakes are made, and the Body # is used instead? Several years ago Ray Moot asked Swigert to varify the #470 that has been recorded for the 1914 H-4 Baby Grand it has - with no reply? Sometimes the #470 is derived from the #407 cylinder head casting part number?
I would like to see photo of the Swigert #470 on the front cross arms and the flywheel. Some privious owner of the H-4 could have removed the #470 engine from the the Dohner H-2 roadster? This is another Chev 4 mystery!
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So did they ever find Old #1?? I don't remember seeing it in Flint. Also, how many Classic or Type C Sixes are left today? Just the two mentioned in this thread?
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I know this is not the oldest but you might find it interesting. There is an early teens or 20's Chevy Touring in a little museum in Real de Catorce, MX. Very interesting ghost town way up in the Sierra Madre mountains. Seems it was the first car to make it to the one time thriving silver town. You have to travel through a mile and a half hand dug tunnel to get to the city. I have never seen the car as I was never in the town on the right day the local priest opens the museum. Its in the middle of the drug war area now so I may never see it.
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Sounds pretty neat, Stretch. Wonder what model? Probably a 490, but who knows? Brewster, the GM Heritage Center Director, Greg Wallace, assures me that they are well aware of Old # 1, and unfortunately it was out of town doing something or other in connection with the GM Tech Center during our week in Flint (bad planning) - I cried and yelled, but Greg couldn't get it back in time for us. Yes, it is still the case that we only know of the two Model C's - the one you saw at the Sloan Museum in Flint, and the one in Westaskiwin, Alberta at the Reynolds Museum (being the oldest of the two - car # 93). If you hear of a third one, let me know first............ 
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I wrote an article on the oldest existing Chevrolet at Reynolds Alberta Museum in our club newsletter, The Running Board, a year ago. This December 2011 issue can be found at: http://clubs.hemmings.com/eacc/RBDecember2011web.pdfArend
Last edited by Arend; 01/07/13 12:06 AM.
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Don... If I hear of a third one, I'll invite you over to help me push it into my garage! Interesting story... I was surfing the web looking for old pictures and stumbled across a story about a guy that had a large (hundreds) collection of early and classic American cars that he stored by hanging them up by their bumpers and building sheds around them. Like a giant meat locker! One of the barns burned down and in it were several one off and sole survivor cars. Also listed was "one of the countries oldest known Chevrolets." No model or numbers were listed. Further in the thread it talks about when the cars were auctioned, and one of the buyers was Reynolds from Alberta! I immediately wondered if there was a Classic C connection there. Further on in the thread the Grandson of the owner jumped in and starts sharing his experiences. I sent him a private message to ask if he had any information about what type of Chevy it was. Unfortunately, he did not remember a Chevrolet. I could not see one in any of the pictures, but by seeing the other rare cars I doubt it was a 490! I'll try to find the thread...
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My father Howard Dunlap was a friend of Barny Pollard, We spent many days, dad more than I going thru Barnys sheds in search of that early chevy We never found it
Mr Pollard was sure it was in the back of one particular shed as he had bought it very early in his collection Dad and others climbed all over that shed (yes cars stood on end with little or no room between them) It was that shed that burned 1976
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