I want to replace one of the battery cables on my 1941. My local Checker does not carry a 6v cable per se, but tells me a 4 ga is for a 12v battery; and 2 ga is for 6v batteries. Are they correct?
For six volts use at least a 00 gauge cable. On my car the positive cable is 0000.
:) :grin:
JYD is right on the money!
I haven't found any cables suitable for a six volt Chevrolet at any chain auto store. I buy some at Tractor Supply Company, they aren't original, but functional. The new ones for my 28 were made by an Arlington TX. alternator starter shop owned by one of the VCCA BOD member's son. It helps to know a lot of VCCA guys.
If you have solder and a propane torch order out some heavy duty terminal ends, and buy the heavy cable you need from a welding supply shop, make them your self.
I tried Tractor Supply website and the lowest they have is 1 gauge. I have tried Google a couple of times and cannot seem to find 00 or 0000 gauge.
I note in Filling Station catalog they have battery cable (FS-696) but no gauge indicated. I'll call them in the morning.
Any other ideas where I can get ones already fabricated?
Thanks
try a heavy equipment dealer. some can custom make them
Getting 00 or 0000 cable should not be a problem. I got my 0000 cable made up at a local starter shop. Since they also worked an semi-trucks and etc. they not only had the cable available by the foot but they also had the end connectors as well. I took my old cable in so that they could match the correct length.
Another place that stocks the large cable by the foot is a welding supply house.
By the way, I believe that the 6 volt cable the Filling Station carries is smaller in diameter than an 00 cable.
:) :grin:
I have used the 2 ga. cables from Tractor Supply Company without problems. Just make sure that there is no corrosion in any of the connections or ground circuit (block, clutch housing, transmission etc.).
Thanks Chipper.
I was beginning to think I was missing something here. If the proper gauges are 00 and 0000 (which I have no doubt are the best solution based on previous posts), and there are tens of thousands of older cars with 6v systems, with x number needing new battery cables each day; then why aren't the ones being sold the proper gauges? Why would a Filling Station not be selling them? Or to put it another way, why isn't anyone marketing a proper-gauge 6v battery cable to people like us?
It just seems that given the demand, why would one have to go to a welding shop to have one fabricated? There must be proper ones on the market. What am I missing here?
Getting 6 volt battery cables by the foot from 0/0 to 4/0 is not a problem. Go here:
http://www.wiringproducts.com/index1.htmlClick on "Battery Cable" in the menu at the bottom of the page.
For 2/0 battery cables J.C. Whitney has them. Go here:
http://www.jcwhitney.com/autoparts/Product/tf-Browse/s-10101/Pr-p_Product.CATENTRY_ID:2006074/p-2006074/N-111+10201+600000921/c-10101/reviewflag-1#review
Also, that are many other places on the Internet where you can get heavy duty battery cables as well.
:) :grin:
Dog:
As I stated when starting this thread, Checker has 2-gauge.
I checked the Wiring Products website you gave me, and they have black 6 gauge and red 4 gauge. I could not find anything thicker.
Whitney has a 2-gauge and a 2/0-gauge which they claim has twice the conductivity of 2-gauge. Is the 2/0-gauge the same cat with a different name and is actually the same as 00 or 0000 gauge mentioned earlier in this thread? If not, does it work as well?
You are getting yourself confused regarding 2 gauge and 2/0 gauge. 2 gauge is different than 2/0 gauge. 2/0 gauge is the same as "00" gauge. Your Checker has 2 gauge not 2/0 (00) gauge. J.C. Whitney has 2/0 gauge and on the link above, if you click on the drop down menu, they not only show that they have the standard gauge cables, but they also have 1/0 (0), 2/0 (00), 3/0 (000) and 4/0 (0000) cables both in black and red.
:) :grin:
By God, I think I've got it! (to misquote Prof Henry Higgens). So, it works somewhat like buckshot. The 4/0 actually means 4 0's. It seems so simple once explained. Your earlier post stated that you use the 0000 (4/0) for positive so I'll go for that.
I just knew someone must carry it and I'd not have to order 5' of cable and have to have someone fabricate it.
Thanks for all your help and patience.
That's a heck of a deal!
Anyway, glad to help out and good luck!
:) :grin:
J.C. Whitney sounds like the battery cable deal to me, the price seems to be right. I have ordered a lot of stuff from them thru the years and have not been disppointed. You hear remarks about their after market stuff not being good quality, then again, I may not be so particular about stuff.
I couldn't find the 4/0 ones on-line, but ordered two 2/0's. The price seemed to be in line with Filling Station, etc.
Back in the late 50's I used to order parts for my Model A Ford from Whitney and was always satisified. We stopped by their store in Il this Summer, but were disappointed. Not much there. We wanted to look at some seats but they did not have any in stock. Most of what is in their catalog they have dropped shipped directly from the supplier.
It is a beautiful morning in AZ, so a little ride around town to go get a Starbucks in a 41' seems in order.
Again, thanks for the help.
Dr. David,
A wee bit off the cables subject; but I'm curious about something. Fountain Hills and Oly, WA. Do you have the 41 shipped back-and-forth, or do YOU trailer it back-and-forth??
Or better yet, do you have a different one for EACH location??
Anyway, have fun cruising for coffee and cables and whatever else in a nice old car in the good weather....
:vcca:
Bill.
We are rainbirds with a 40' motorhome that we drive back and forth between Wa and Az. We tow our cars behind in an enclosed trailer.
The 2/0 gauge and 00 gauge are the same. Same with 4/0 and 0000. Once you have wires that have large enough diameter the resistance will be low enough that you will get the full 6.6 volts to the starter and ignition system. It will start with proper starter speed. If the starter does not spin fast enough then check for warm spots in the wiring and expecially the terminal ends. That indicates a high resistance that turns the electic power to heat and not useful work.
I couldn't find the 4/0 ones on-line........
The 4/0 cables are all over on the Internet. The link that I supplied above has them in various lengths. For example, the black cable is shown on their web site as follows:
"4/0 Gauge (W-BCB-4/0)$45.31
:) :grin:
I didn't see anyone mention it, but you should keep the cable as short as possible to reach where you need to reach taking into consideration engine roll. No longer than necessary.
Seeing as how you are driving a 40 ft motor home I would have to think it probably has some heavy battery cables of its own.Now I'm not suggesting you remove and use them but perhaps your motor home dealer has them or can fabricate some.Also most heavy truck dealers( the ones associated with the "other" dog) should be able to fabricate per sample.Being a west coaster perhaps you may find other brands more prevalent but any heavy truck dealer(Peterbilt-Kenworth-Volvo-IH-Sterling-WesternStar-Freightliner etc) should be able to help you out.
The price sounds fine but I think the 2/0 would be my preference.The 6 volt system will turn slower than a 12 volt as it has less ability(or push) to get the current to the starter.The bigger the cable(more o's) the greater the amount of current flow and the better the starter likes it.Restricting the current flow could cause premature failure of the starter.Perhaps one of the tech advisers knows the specs on the amps required and the capacity of the 2ga cable.
Using your suggestions I bought two cables (2/00) from JC Whitney. I bought the lengths that would just fit. While I didn't have any problem with starting prior to the new cables, I cannot believe how much faster and quicker the starter now works. The starter engages instantly when I press the pedal. It used to have a slight lag.
Thanks to all of you for all your help.
PS While my motorhome has 6v deep cell batteries, they are connected in twos with 12v cables as they power 12v bulbs, etc. when the land-line is not hooked up.
It also can be common for the original old large cables to look OK but the inner strands of wire are rotted away....this can be true with both the positive and ground.
There is a lot of good information in this thread. It makes good sense that a larger cable will be able to deliver more current than a smaller one, but they all terminate on a 1/4" lug on my starter.
With a brief internet search, I have found the following site:
http://www.interfacebus.com/Copper_Wire_AWG_SIze.htmlThis lists the current carring ablility of different wire sizes.
http://photovoltaics.sandia.gov/docs/interconnect.htmlThis site gives some information on voltage drop.
However, To do the calculation properly, you need to know what the current draw of the device is, in this case the starter. Then we could size a wire to have a voltage drop of 5% or less for a starter circuit using different lengths of wire. A 5% voltage drop on 6 volts would be 5.7 volts. I am no expert on voltage regulators, but it would also seem that you could set the regulator to charge at a little higher voltage to overcome voltage drop to the starter.
Can anyone tell me what the current draw is of a typical 6 volt starter?
One other question. On my car, the starter switch was replaced at sometime in the past with a solonoid switch. This connects to the copper lug on the starter by simply touching a slanting copper plate inside of the solonoid to the starter lug. This seems to me to be a very poor way to conduct current. Should there be a conductive grease applied to this connection?
I also found a calculator on the internet that I created the following table from. If I have done this correctly, these are the results. I took a stab at the current draw of the starter at 250 amps. It appears that a 1/3 reduction in power draw also results in about a 1/3 reduction in voltage drop.
current flow 250 amps at 6 volts
wire size voltage drop percent
per foot loss per ft.
4 0.062 1.03%
2 0.039 0.65%
1 0.031 0.52%
0 0.025 0.42%
00 0.020 0.33%
000 0.016 0.27%
0000 0.012 0.20%
(this table looks good in the edit mode, but somehow all the spaces were removed. I think you can still figure it out.)
If I have screwed this up, please let me know.
Thanks,
Rich
The information that I have gives-
Starter free running speed-5000 RPM with current draw of 65 Amps at 5.0 volts.
Lock load installed, current draw of 475 amps at 3.63 volts.
If the contacts are like a Chevrolet switch no lubrication is used and they have a self cleaning sliding action. The surface is cut at an angle where they make contact. The voltage regulator has nothing to do with the draw. The "amps" for the starter are stored in the battery and it can hold only so much - would be my description.
The cables I get at a farm store are 2-00 which is very large, very inexpensive and work very good.
The lug on the starter is 3/8" so the cable hole would be larger than that.
If you have been emailing me I can not find/open your messages for some reason.
Chev Nut is right, the regulator has nothing to do with the starter system as it only operates after the engine is started and running at enough speed to make the generator charge.
Tony
My comment about the regulator was concerning increasing the charging voltage to the battery. If the battery were at 6.25 volts then with the voltage drop to the starter under load, it would be closer to the desired 6 volts. In this regard, the voltage regulator settings would have a positive impact on starting current available.
If my table is correct, and I would like to hear from someone else on this to confirm it, the voltage drop on a 2 gage cable of about 2' in length is not all that great. Granted, the voltage drop on a 2/0 cable is 1/2 that of a 2 gage, but still not that great. That would also assume that my guess of 250 Amps for starting current is close to actual values.
Just a thought from a NON-Expert in auto electronics.
Rich
The paramount rule to remember here is that all of the cable that we are concerned with in these discussions will carry as much current as the starter will draw. The only difference is in how well it will dissipate the heat generated by the current flow. Hence, a #10 wire will overheat at 400 amps and burn up in a very short time and a #4/0 wire will carry that plus some all day long without overheating.
Here are some resistance specs of the cable typically used for our 6v starters in ohm/1000 feet @ 20°C;
1AWG = .134ohms,
2/0AWG = .084ohms,
4/0AWG = .053ohms.
By applying Ohms law one can see that very little voltage will be dropped across any of these cables allowing for virtually all of the voltage to be available at the starter. With a four-foot length it would be difficult to accurately measure this small of a resistance even with very sophisticated instruments.
Your 6v starter will probably draw roughly 400amp starting a 216 or 235 engine. If you take the resistance of a 1AWG cable i.e., .134ohms and divide it by 1000 you get .000134ohms, times a four foot cable, which happens to be the length of the one on my 1950, 3600 truck for example, you get .000536ohms. This times the 400amp current running thru the resistance gives you a voltage drop across the cable of .214v. Assuming your battery is fully charged .214v from the 6.3v will give you 6.09v available at the starter.
If you went to a 4/0 cable four feet long there would be a drop of .085v across the cable giving you 6.215v available at the starter.
With a difference of 125mv I doubt if you would notice any difference in the way the engine cranked.
You have to conceder the duty cycle of the cable. The duty cycle is based on a 5-minute period. The #1 cable will carry 250amp with a 100% duty cycle, at 450amp the duty cycle is reduced to 30%. By comparison a #4/0 cable it will carry 470amp at 100% duty cycle and 858amp with a 30% duty cycle.
So what this means is that if your starter can draw 400amps thru the 4/0 cable all day long and over a 5-minute period the ability of your #1 cable will decrease by 70%. Now of course you have to remember that the field coils in the starter are only equivalent to an 8 or 10 gage wire and because of that Delco-Remy service bulletins caution you not to crank the starter for more than 30 seconds at a time or you will over heat the coils and quite possibly burn the starter up. So keeping in mind that any electrical circuit is only going to carry as much current as its weakest link, I have to ask, is that 4/0 cable really necessary to feed the field coils?
Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL
Denny,
My research showed that voltage drop was not really an issue. Your response more correctly takes into account the current carring ablity of the wire. As you note, there is another limiting factor in the starter that is an issue too.
Maybe we are beating this issue to death. What size wire was originally used in these cars, and, is there any reason to believe that it is not still appropriate to use this size now?
Rich
The original cable that was on my 1950 is not as "fat" as the 2-00 cable I replaced it with. The original was still working fine. You guys are making a mountain out of a mole hill. Just use the proper sized cables, have a charged healthy battery with good clean connections, a starter the is in good shape and you will have no problems.
Amen, Gene, Amen!!!!
