Clutch on my 1931 Independence seems fine. No chatter or slip. This weekend now hear a loud clacking noise emitting from the bell-housing area. It's diagnosed as a defective clutch, either the throw-out, pilot bearing, or perhaps a broken disk spring. Suggestion is to replace all components which entails removal of the transmission. Told it is necessary to pull the rear end and springs to access. The Repair Manual suggests instead a easier process whereby the brake cross shaft and universal be accessed to drop the transmission free. Which is correct? Clacking noise is much louder when the clutch is released. What might cause this? Thank You -

Think of this forum as a free consultant. And we all know the definition of a consultant. It is someone you pay to tell you what time it is using your watch. Because sometimes you need to be told what time it is!

I agree that the transmission will have most likely to be removed to address this problem. You can try to mess around with the clutch arm and look up inside if you can remove the lower shield. I don't know if your car has a removeable shield.

You might not need to remove the rear end and springs. You need to have things in a position so you can take the ball joint housing apart so you can take the u-joint apart. You then will side the back portion of the u-joint to the rear.

Normally you can get enough clearance if you let the rear axle hang down as far as it can on the springs.

There are lots of pieces and parts inside the clutch housing that could be creating the clacking noise. My approach with problems like this is to take things apart first so you can determine the source of the problem. Then you know which parts you need. I do agree that while you are that far into things you need to replace anything that is marginal such as showing a lot of looseness or wear.

Thanks Rusty. Concern is the shop warns a potential for fifty hours of labor @ $85 per hour plus what adds up to $600 in parts. Not in a position to fork out almost $5000 for a clutch repair. Was hoping for a fix that doesn't break the bank!

WOW! That sure seems like a lot of hours. Are you working with a shop that normally services classic cars like these Chevy's? If this is your go-to shop for your regular cars you might want to look some more. My observation is that there are 2 undesirable results from letting a normal shop do this type work. One is excessive cost/excessive duration for the repair. The other is that the work is not done properly.

I'm thinking that a membership in VCCA and getting to know some members in the Chicago region will be a great investment for you. They can help you diagnose the problem as well as recommend shops in the area.

Is the clicking noise each time the clutch is engaged or other times as well? How about when accelerating and/or decelerating?

The quote was from a local vintage auto restoration shop. Please ask if anyone can recommend an alternative in the northern Illinois region. The clicking is faint with the clutch engaged but very loud when released.

Haven't driven it since the noise began but increasing the engine speed does not impact the sound. I know it is from the because housing because we pulled the valve cover for the engine it it was obvious not engine related.

I can suggest Priz Auto and Truck Repair 31W340 91st St Naperville, IL 60564 (630) 851-6900. Owner is a VCCA member.

A click on engagement, acceleration and deceleration can be loose flywheel bolts. Tightening them requires removal of the pressure and clutch plates. There are three cover pieces on the bottom of the clutch housing that allow access to clutch pressure plate bolts. The clutch arm can be checked through the slot in the clutch housing.

When you say engine speed does not effect the sound. Do you mean it does not speed up, or it does not get louder?

I think '31 is the first year of the larger lower inspection cover, and more traditional modern style cast iron bell housing. Take the lower cover off and see what you find. Take some well lit pictures and post them here.

Like Rusty 37 said it would be a good idea to join the VCCA and find a local member as mentor.

50 hours sounds kinda excessive, but they will give you a number they think they can come in under. As a contractor I always thought it was better to come in under budget and be a hero than to go over and be a zero. These cars are not very complicated. Getting my '29 apart is probably around a 4 hour job. Not including the machining time the total is maybe a 10 hour job. I do not have to take the differential or the brake cross member out to get it apart. Some of the extra things needed like taking out the pilot bearing will take a little more time. Throw in some machining, a new disk, new pilot bearing, some springs, and a modernized throw out bearing and you might get close to $600 in parts. Once apart I would recommend adding a "Billy Possum brand" elastomer seal to the front of the transmission. This will help keep gear oil out of the clutch area. The flywheel and pressure plate will only go together one way. I would recommend having it balanced after replacing the springs or machining. If you have it resurfaced it is important to take the same amount of metal off of the pressure plate mounting flange. Some shops do not know about this critical step, since with modern flywheels it is already built in.

Remember do not sit through a stop light with the clutch pushed in. These are not like modern cars. It will quickly wipe the oil off of the center thrust bearing and be steel on straight babbit.

Art

Appreciate the information! Will reach out to the Naperville shop given it is just down the road from me! Will look today to see if the car does have the inspection cover. Just retired last month and the income loss is immense so hoping for a more economical alternative to a complete rebuild. The clicking noise happened over night. Fine one day and the loud tapping the very next morning. Clutch performs well currently other then the noise which is dominant once the clutch is released. The stop light suggestion was new to me. I have always sat through lights with clutch engaged. Live and learn!

Tom Priz is a cracker jack mechanic and a good friend. Have been on numerous VCCA Tours with them. He drives his '53 Sedan all over the US.

After reviewing the series of posts, I am thinking U-joint is the most likely source if the noise.

One other fact that I have found in the 50+ years working on these cars and trucks is that drive train noise is often not where we think it is. A bad pinion bearing is more often thought to be in the transmission or U-joint than near the rear end.

Wow! A different twist. How do I determine if the issue is u-joint related? Any test to diagnose?

Put in high gear and rock car back and forth. If you get a clunk or thud loudest just behind the transmission it may be the U-joint. Of course it could be from the other end of the propeller (aka drive) shaft as the solid steel carries sound well.

I will try that today. Thanks. Called Tom this morning but no answer. Either busy or closed on Saturdays. Will keep trying.

Good idea about the u-joint as the potential problem. Chipper is correct that it is sometimes difficult to determine the actual source of a noise whether you think it is in the engine, drivetrain or suspension.

Here is another interesting test to try. When the drivetrain is under a constant load such as light acceleration does the noise do away? That would help confirm that something is loose but a load takes away the slack. It might also go away under braking when the drivetrain is loaded in the opposite direction.

I totally endorse Tom as your next contact! His shop is closed on Saturdays. If it is not work he can handle in his shop he will know who could.

Had hoped to test the waters this afternoon but the wife has a different agenda for me. Will certainly follow these recommendations tomorrow "Sunday" for sure. I do recall hearing the noise while the car was in forward motion but will find out and let you know. Also the braking suggestion. Will call Tom Monday morning. Thanks!!

Just for clarification...

Does this clacking sound happen when the engine is running but the car is sitting still in neutral?
Or only when moving?
If you hear it with the car standing still, your problem is from the transmission input shaft forward.

When you refer to "clutch engaged", does that mean with your foot off the pedal?
Or with the pedal to the floor?
I've seen some people use the term "clutch engaged" when they mean with the pedal to the floor, which can be confusing.

Specifically,
what you said here has me wondering exactly when the noise is happening:
"Clutch performs well currently other then the noise which is dominant once the clutch is released. The stop light suggestion was new to me. I have always sat through lights with clutch engaged. Live and learn!"

The noise is there when the car is both motionless and moving but far more prevalent when the foot is off the clutch pedal. Noise both in neutral and in gear. Consistent no matter the speed of forward motion.

By input shaft forward are you saying it is the clutch itself as initially thought? The disc, throw-out bearing, pilot bearing and etc?

Interesting post about the noise not being related to ground speed. Is it related to engine speed regardless of ground speed?

Here are 2 really crazy ideas to consider and check.

Have you grabbed a fan blade (with the engine not running of course) and tried to wiggle it? Watch it while the engine runs to see it it wobbles. The water pump bearing could be going bad.

Another really far fetched one is to watch the front of the crankshaft while the engine is running and someone pushes the clutch pedal to the floor and releases it. The thrust bearing could be worn, especially if you keep the pedal on the floor at stop lights.

Is the thrust bearing part of the clutch mechanism or engine related? The engine was freshly restored 2000 miles ago.
Will for certain check the fan blade play tomorrow. Sounds logical.

Yes.

Your problem is in the clutch (release bearing, pressure plate, disk etc), flywheel, or engine.

The thrust bearing Rusty is referring to is the center main bearing in the engine, which has flanges on it which control the end wise movement of the crankshaft.

Appreciate the tremendous response on this. Sunday - I'll do diligence checking out all of the suggestions thus far. One thing for certain is to take a stethoscope to the bell housing since the floorboard is easily enough removed. What is scary is it's obvious it could be emitting from a variety of sources. Important all relatively inexpensive theories be discounted first before I plunge into a very expensive clutch renewal process. Promise to report back regarding the end result. Thank You! Yes the plan is to become a due paying member of the VCCA. Great group of helpful guys!

Followup: Spent the morning today and confirmed the clicking does emit from directly from the inspection cover. Had hoped to remove it for a look see but 3 of the 4 bolts are held tight and was afraid to strip the heads. Sprayed them with a solvent for now. Repacked the water pump cup and found it not to be the cause since the fan assembly was tight.

Took it for a short ride and the clutch and transmission glided smoothly but the clatter does persist while in motion. The speed of the noise does increase but not measurably moving forward. As mentioned before, the sound is stronger when the foot is off the clutch pedal.

Will call Tom Priz Monday morning.

You obviously know how the forum works so I'm going to move this to the technical forum to continue there. There it'll be more easily found by others with the same issue.

Called for Tom Priz at his shop this morning. Told he is currently in the hospital. They ask I check back in 30 to 45 days. Also during his absence they are short on staff.

Hope all will be well with Tom. He is a great guy. Did they recommend anyone else?

They suggested I check back with them in 30 to 45 days. No alternative recommendation.

In all honesty, the original quote of 40-50 hours is absurd. That’s over one full work week to pull a tranny/clutch, and replace! It takes me less than two hours to pull a tranny and clutch out. If it’s just replacing parts on hand, total time is 3.5-4 hours from start to finish. With the car idling, and the pedal depressed, is there noise. Make sure the transmission main shaft is not turning at all while you hold the pedal depressed. Is there any noise? I’ve seen bad transmission main shaft bearings get mistaken for clutch/pressure plate issues.

The same noise when the clutch is depressed. The volume of the clicking is then greatly reduced but still there. Appreciate the main shaft bearing suggestion. I will make mention of that should I find a provider for the repair work. Earlier today I climbed under the car while idling and looked for the source of the clacking. It emits from the bell housing area. The noise persists and is loud when the car is in motion.

Hello TG1931,

So what Chistech is asking you with the car idling push down the clutch pedal and pull the transmission into gear. That will stop everything in the transmission from spinning. Does the sound stop? That would eliminate the clutch shaft transmission bearing. The other thing we were asking is when the engine is revved up does the sound speed up with the engine, or just get louder while staying the same speed?

One of the crazy noise sources on a engine I saw was that one of the connecting rod bolt heads was just clipping the cam shaft. It did not break anything but just showed up as a little polished section.

Art

Update - Pulled the transmission with assist from a friend. Surprised in that it only took a few hours. The throw out bearing has a depression on one end of it. The clutch plate has rub marks on the backside which appears to be the reason for the clicking noise when the clutch is engaged. The raised area protecting the smaller springs all appear to be hitting something inside the bell housing. Assume it mighty be a bolt head. Going back in again this Thursday. Will report back the findings.

Check to be sure the clutch disc is not in backwards as the dampening springs are not centered in the disc. The offset needs to face the transmission or the flywheel bolt heads will hit the dampening spring cage.

I installed a new clutch that was said to fit a 30’ and it had springs as steve described. I put the disk in the correct way but the hub of the disk was hitting on the inside of the pressure plate. It caused me all kinds of grief. I ordered another disk but from the filling station and all was good.

We noted the new disk doesn't have the damper springs visible. It also appears to be more shallow then the old part which should alleviate the friction potential with the bolts. Believe it to be a correct replacement part. I sourced it from Gary Wallace Inc.

Resolution: Found a retired gentlemen with previous transmission experience that was receptive to a home garage repair project. Up high on jack stands, found that the transmission was removed easier then initially thought. Only took a total of 3 hours! The ticking noise was the buffer springs on the clutch disk rattling against a bell housing bolt. Replaced the disk and throw-out bearing and prior to install ground down the bell housing bolt heads and secured them with red loctite. Some difficulty getting the transition to align correctly. Balancing it on our knees while shining a light up into the cavity. Today's activity took an additional 5 hours total. Tomorrow - Hope to reconnect the brake rods and centralize the mechanism. No more ticking! Thanks again for all of the assistance. Shared commentary was very helpful!