VCCA Home Forums TECHNICAL - GENERAL Tech Talk 25 or 26

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I recently purchased this sedan from the second owner. It is a late K with car number 21K46223. Using the by month production numbers for 1925, it most likely rolled off the Janesville, Wisconsin assembly line just after noon on October 13, 1925, which would put it in the "1926 selling year".
http://img380.imageshack.us/img380/4903/25sedan0016jw.jpg
My question is, can I call it a 1926?
This is my first attempt at posting a photo, so let me know if it worked. Thanks,

Roger

Hi Roger, Your picture is no longer viewable. You may try to post it again.

More information is need to place a year on your car. The date on the head, block, transmission would be very helpful.

Yep picture is there, more please
Congratulations, looks like a fine project to me.
About the right year, there are others that will tell you exactly what it is, I'm still learning.

Thanks
Richard

Hello Roger... I have the same car as you do. A late '25 built in Terrytown N.Y. in October of 1925. Car # 2K63173. Back then cars built September or later were classified as the next years model but the changes weren't made until January.Dealers were allowed to sell and register them as 1926 cars. The late K's were really a '26 body on a '25 chassis and drivetrain. Your spark and throttle levers are down next to the dash and your headlights are mounted on a crossbar. Those are a couple of changes made for 1926. Your generator is gear driven and has the dist. and oil pump attached to it. Your lower radiator hose should also be on the drivers side. Those are hold overs from the '25 model year. My car is registered as a 1926. But if you take your car to a VCCA car show it will be judged as a 1925 model 'K'. The '26 model 'V' made in January is much different in many ways. So we have a little bit of both years in our cars. Your car and the coupe originally came with four lug disc wheels.Wooden wheels were on the 2 door coach, roadster and the touring cars. Good luck with your car.

Thanks Steve...I plan on putting disc wheels on it, but they are 6 lug. Do you mean 4 on the hub or 4 on the rim? I also have a late K touring, that I plan to restore to the original specs, but the sedan is in such nice condition, I just want to get it running and on the road. The engine is a latter 26 with the belt driven generator. What state of completion is yours? I need to replace a couple top bows and slats before I can get a new top put on. The seats are good, but it needs a headliner and some of the door panels need work. How/where is your horn mounted? My touring, which is not a fisher body has the horn mounted inside the firewall, but no hole there in the sedan. Do you know if there is an accepted method for establishing what year it is? I bought my 99 Tahoe in June 98 and they are selling the 2007 Tahoe already.

Roger

If the horn is a vibrating type and mounted through a hole in the cowl, you have an early car. All open cars were assembled by Chevrolet. The closed cars are "Body by Fisher". The sedan is a Late car and the motor driven horn is mounted by a bracket off the exhaust manifold. To establish the date of the car(s) provide us with the numbers off the data plate on the end of the seat frame, casting date off the head, and casting date off the engine.

I assume you are talking about the closed car. As it is a late car it could have the optional balloon tires with disc wheels. They would be 6 lug at the center and 4 lug for the rim to disc.

Thanks Ray...the data plate number for the touring is 6K29107, which works out to a July 13th rollout? The original G-8-5 motor is 844624, stamped 1812976 and has a full length crack and no head. My replacement motor is also 844624, dated G-9-5 and stamped 1825488. It has the spark and throttle on the dash and the early type headlight bar. Would I need different brake drum with the discs and will my split rims from the wood wheels work on the disc wheels?

Roger

To make the change you need the hubs and brake drums for the disc wheels. The rim will work on either.

Hello IMFALCO; I sent you an email so you can see my car. I don't know how to post it on this site. Some day I'll take the time to learn how it's done. My horn is mounted on the exhaust manifold.

Thanks Steve.......beautiful car and just looking at it has inspired me to get mine going. Let me know if it's ok to post the photos you sent me. Although I've learned a couple things, the question remains are my cars late K 25's or late K 26's? Since the early V started in January, is there such a car as a late K 26? Here are my car numbers again.
Touring - 6K29107
Sedan - 21K46223

Roger

Hi Roger; As far as I can tell from all the books I've read the model 'K' ended in December 1925. The model 'V' started January 1926. I've seen a lot of cars over the years for sale on EBAY that claim to be 'K's" but are clearly made in 1926. The ID tag on the sides of the seats say Superior model 'K', but I guess those can be removed and replaced very easily. I think someone with more knowledge on the subject can set it all straight for us. You can post the pictures of my car if you wish.

Hi Roger, went to the research mode. Superior K were intrduced mid 25 and the v mid 26. In between many changes were made. Engine changes: belt driven generator, gear driven distrubter. Mechanical brakes went from 2 to 2 1/2" wide. Some car were caught in a cross fire and had a little of both. My 26 1/2 ton was a v chasis had a 26 motor, but only 2" wide brakes. Another change half way through was head light mounting from fenders to cross bar. Rad shell and sheet meatal staid the same. Some like to list the K series as 25 and the V series as 26.
Thanks
John

Photos of Steve's 26 Superior "K".................

http://img387.imageshack.us/img387/7655/s262dv.jpg

http://img387.imageshack.us/img387/7596/steves262ft.jpg

Woodbutcher.......my literature says there were 588 series K 1925 cars built between Nov 28 and Dec 31, 1924. Series V cars started Jan 1926.

Roger

This thread is about to go astray so I best get in here and try to steer it back on course.

The discussion on the 1925 and 1926 has been going on for years and may never be correctly sorted out.

For the purpose of discussion, we will divide the 1925-26 into 4 parts, Jan 1925 to August 1925, August 1925 to December 1925, Jan 1926 to August 1926, and August 1926 to December 1926.

Starting in January 1925 the spark and throttle controls were under the steering wheel, the headlights were mounted on the fenders, and 81 other quality features described the 1925 over the 1924. Chevrolet made a big issue of these improvements(?) by publishing a brochure describing in detail these 83 quality changes.

In August 1925, 6 additional improvements were added. They included a motor driven horn, headlight tie bar, longer gear shift lever, rigid headlight rim construction, improved body sheet metal to eliminate noise, and a walnut finish corrugated steering wheel.

In January 1926 the designation was changed to the “V”, and 25 additional quality features were incorporated into the vehicle. The most obvious change was the belt driven generator, distributor driven by camshaft, and 33 1/3 increased in brake surface.

In August 1926, 15 more improvements were made, with some of the obvious being the location of the throttle and spark to the top of the steering wheel, all controls now in the steering column, combination tail and stop light, and finally, rear view mirrors on all models.

Perhaps the most confusing item in identifying any of the ¼ areas is the data plate. I believe that Chevrolet had an excess of data plates with SUPERIOR K embossed, and elected to continue using them on the “V” designation cars until the supply was exhausted.

Just a note about the dates noted in this post. Don’t for one second assume that the transition on these changes took place on the date specified. Assembly would continue at each assembly plant until the supply of parts was exhausted and then, the new item would be used, and probably different dates at each plant. So the dates are benchmarks for the purpose of discussion.

Thanks Ray, but now that I know more, I still know less, no less. Here is what I got from all the information posted so far. 1925 introduced the series K and at mid year made some changes and someone further named the early ones early K and the later ones late K. Then the series V was introduced in January 1926 and mid year there were more changes again and these were called early V and late V. So, if we were strictly going by calendar year, there would be no problem
with saying all Ks were 25s and all Vs were 26s.

But that is not the case, as some Ks are 26s and I would like to know if there is a cutoff date, or serial number(s) which will tell me what year car I have. My car did not come with a cowl tag, only the data plate on the drivers side of the seat. There must be some official VCCA stand on this matter for judging purposes.

Roger

The data plate on the side of the seat frame will date your vehicle exactly. You can confirm the information by comparing it with the casting dates on the head and block. You can insure you have the original head and block by removing the exhaust manifold and comparing the engine serial number with the number stamped in the face of the exhaust manifold. This number is under the exhaust manifold.

As noted in a previous post, the series letter is not reliable. The exception being the first 1926 vehicles that apparently used the excess "K" data plates.

When checking head and block for casting dates, remember it must proceed the actual date of assembly by several days. This would make an engine block and head dated in December for example would have an assembly date in perhaps January of the following year.

The official VCCA Judging Class for the 1925 K's and the 1926 V's is they are all together in Class E. At one time when the club placed the late V's with stop light which came out at the beginning of the 1927 Sales Season, that traditionally started on August 1st, 1926, in Class F which is for the 1927 Capitols and 1928 Nationals. For juging purposes - this didn't make sense - so the 1927 V's were moved back to Class E. For state title requirements, a late K' could had been license by its year of manufacture [YOM] as a 1925 model or by its selling season as a 1926 model. Most owners will use the year of manufacture for the titles.
KenK

Thanks to all for contributing to my quest to correctly date my late K cars. Please correct me if I'm wrong,

Chevrolet started making the model Superior, series K car on November 28, 1924, producing 588 cars to be sold as 1925 models, later labeled as early K. This car had 83 improvements over the 1924 car. From August to December 1925 more improvements were introduced and these cars were sold as 1926 models and labeled late K. Early V started January 1926 with the main improvement being the new engine and frame. From August to December 1926 a few more changes for the last of the Superiors, labeled late series V and these cars were sold as 1927 models.

The VCCA club recognizes the late V (for judging purposes) as 1926 Superior. Since the 1925 and 1926 cars are in the same class, the late K cars are considered 1925, or 1926 depending on whom you are addressing, the DMV (Department of Motor Vehicles), the head judge at the next meet, or your own curiosity. My main concern is getting my cars dated to please everyone and it appears that won't happen. I would like to paint the sedan the 1926 color combination and the touring the 1925 second color combination, which I believe are correct from the original colors still there underneath the black overcoat. I found a replacement engine for the touring, which was built only one day later than the original, but the sedan came with the newer (belt driven generator) engine, which was likely put in later. My conclusion is to call the touring (produced Aug 10) a 1925 and the sedan (produced Oct 13) a 1926. That way, I won't be totally wrong and I can justify in my own mind down the road to completion for these 2 Chevrolets.

Roger

I thought I had this one sorted out, but apparently not.

Touring car = 6K29107 = 6 is Oakland, "K" is series, 29107 is the 28,107th car assembled at the Oakland assembly plant and falls in the month of August for the assembly date. This car is then obviously a 1925 car.

Sedan = 21K46223 = 21 is Janesville, "K" is the series, 46223 is the 45,223th car assembled at that plant and falls in the month of October. This car is also a 1925.

The statement that 588 cars were assembled in 1924 is correct only for the Flint assembly plant. 8490 cars were assembled at the other 6 assembly locations during the same period.

The category "during the __selling season", is difficult to understand and is not spelled out anywhere I am aware of. Therefore, it should be ignored.

The category "early or late" is used to distinguish what period the car was assembled and provides a base of reference for discussion.

I receive many requests, by phone, letter and the Internet, in my position as the VCCA TA for 1925 and 1926. The first thing I must ascertain is, which period is your car in, so I can give you correct information. This discussion always leads to a better understanding by the owner so he may ask the correct questions.

Thanks Ray, you answered my question. I'm glad you saved your answer until after I became more savvy on the subject. Can I assume that the last K was produced on December 31, 1925 and no Ks were rolled out in 1926, except for the few that were embossed, or stamped K with a V in the serial number? I will also call the sedan a 1925 and live with the complaints that I painted it the wrong color. Who knows, maybe Duco gussied up the Chevrolet name of aqua marine blue to Algerian Blue, like they appeared to do by changing the Chevrolet name of gun metal grey to Buckingham Grey. I have a Chevrolet brochure published in 1926, that shows the touring painted gun metal grey and a Duco color chart that gives the 1926 touring color as Biscay Green. Maybe that subject merits another thread.

Roger

For a good explaination of the Chevrolet selling season for 1925 and 1926, that went from August 1 to July 31, see the front page data sheet in the 1928 Master Parts Price List.
KenK

Thanks Ken, I got my feelers out for that publication. Of course if you wanted to send me a copy of that page it would save me some time.

Roger

I have looked at that information in the front of the 1928 Parts Price List numerous times and find it more confusing each time I read it. To me that information has no value.

Why do we need to break the production down on a period of 1 August till the 31th of July the following year. This information was obviously for the benifit of the bean counters.

Production figures, which are broken down by calander year, make much more sense. Generally, the figures start with 1000 for the first car assembled in January and terminate with the total cars produced in December and then starts back over with the 1000 on the following January.

Particularly, as we discuss the 1925-26 production it is much easier to use the breakdown by 1/4s to identify characteristics at the time of assembly.

PS: "Roger" The 1928 Master Parts Price List is available from many vendors as a reprint at a reasonable price.